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Thread: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed[W:1581]

  1. #201
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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    I shouldn't have picked a safe majority. The majority is always safe. What about Jews? Muslims?

    Say there's a small town with one or two convenience stores. Both have a no Jew or Muslim policy. Should the few Jews and Muslims in the town be forced to move in order to receive service?
    Apparently you missed a previous post of mine in this thread. Here it is again. I'll bold the pertinent part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Sorry but just because someone opens up a business does not mean that their rights to religion or free association goes away. I know that you wish it were otherwise but that is just not the case.

    As for the business suffering, that's the owner of the businesses choice isn't it? I know this might be a foreign concept to some people but not everyone opens up a business just to make money.

    As for my "braying" I'm sure that you're well aware that I personally support SSM...right? I've got the posting history to prove it both here and in other forums. For instance, ask Hicup (who is against SSM) how much we debated SSM in the past via a PM.

    What you don't seem to understand is that there are actually people out there that support actual RIGHTS. Not emotional appeals or belief systems based on emotion. Gays have a right to marry. Companies have a right to associate with who they want. NO ONE has a right to force a service from ANYONE. And if that means defending a companies right to discriminate against gays, blacks, whites or whatever then yes, I will do so. I won't give them my business. But I sure as hell will defend their Rights. Because those Rights are the same ones that I have and no way in hell am I going to give up ANY Right. No matter how messed up that Right can be used for. The only way that a Right can be abridged is if it harms someone. And denying a service does not harm ANYONE.
    Does that answer your question?
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  2. #202
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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    well name one thing of value religion contributes in the 21st century

    and i'm talking the bronze age book of fables known as the bible - what these small town yokels cling to - not pantheism, deism, jainism or hell, even nihilism might have more utility
    There are plenty of examples of religion contributing to 21st century. The Egyptian revolution succeeded in large part thanks to the union of various faiths. Egyptian Muslims and Copts saw a necessity for the faithful to unite and put away religious differences and advocated for unity based on the peaceful aspects of their respective religion. This union was VERY similar to the civil rights movement of the 1960s where Catholics and Evangelicals advocated for equality.

    We don't have to go that far to look at the value of religion though. In the US, religious organizations have helped millions of people through community outreach programs. The Nation of Islam has been particularly helpful in cleaning up many neighborhoods in the East Coast. Millions of Christians have used religion to overcome their drug addictions.

    If you still disagree, you can look at the billions donated by Christians to foundations helping the most destitute countries in Africa. Some of which I've worked with in Latin America even though I consider myself an atheist. So I guess "one thing" of value that Christianity provides when some people aren't hell bent on discriminating is: unity.

    It doesn't sound like much until you consider that the average person regardless of their faith can't be bothered to give 50 cents to a guy on the street. Religion provides a reason for people to do good things together. I'm not saying that people won't do good things regardless, but religion provides a group dynamic that compels people to engage in collective caritative activities. That is definitely one thing of great value.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Blemonds View Post
    There was nothing illegal done or suggested by the pizza shop owners
    this is why i asked a question and didnt say the pizza shop factually did anything, glad i could help you with your mistake. You're welcome.
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  4. #204
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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    Um...my point was that statistically, if they oppose SSM, they are likely to oppose gay rights across the board. Sodomy laws and SSM are not the same subject. Sending the gestapo to barge into bedrooms and make arrests for consensual sex is not at all the same level of intolerance as opposing marriage rights.

    The reason most oppose both or neither is most either hate homosexuals or have no problem with it. Guess which the pizza owners fall into?
    Apparently they have no problem with homosexuals since they have stated that if they come through the door wanting a pizza then they will sell them one with absolutely no problem in doing so. They just wouldn't cater a gay wedding. Its gay weddings that they are against. Not gays themselves.

    And there's a difference between statistics and polls. Polls might use statistics, but statistics do not use polls. Polls are mainly about peoples opinions. Statistics rely more on math and facts.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    There are plenty of examples of religion contributing to 21st century. The Egyptian revolution succeeded in large part thanks to the union of various faiths. Egyptian Muslims and Copts saw a necessity for the faithful to unite and put away religious differences and advocated for unity based on the peaceful aspects of their respective religion. This union was VERY similar to the civil rights movement of the 1960s where Catholics and Evangelicals advocated for equality.

    We don't have to go that far to look at the value of religion though. In the US, religious organizations have helped millions of people through community outreach programs. The Nation of Islam has been particularly helpful in cleaning up many neighborhoods in the East Coast. Millions of Christians have used religion to overcome their drug addictions.

    If you still disagree, you can look at the billions donated by Christians to foundations helping the most destitute countries in Africa. Some of which I've worked with in Latin America even though I consider myself an atheist. So I guess "one thing" of value that Christianity provides when some people aren't hell bent on discriminating is: unity.

    It doesn't sound like much until you consider that the average person regardless of their faith can't be bothered to give 50 cents to a guy on the street. Religion provides a reason for people to do good things together. I'm not saying that people won't do good things regardless, but religion provides a group dynamic that compels people to engage in caritative activities. That is definitely one thing of great value.
    Well now you convinced me to not opposed the next "RFRA" in uganda. Oh wait, they passed a life sentence law on homosexuals, thanks to christian missionaries

    Let's try to keep the focus in the eastern time zone at least. Uganda is not in the 21st century

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    Well now you convinced me to not opposed the next "RFRA" in uganda. Oh wait, they passed a life sentence law on homosexuals, thanks to christian missionaries

    Let's try to keep the focus in the eastern time zone at least. Uganda is not in the 21st century
    I'm pretty sure I gave worldwide examples to back up my statement. Hell, I'm convinced I even MENTIONED the East Coast as part of my post. If you want to look at some of the terrible activities of some Christians to make your point, go for it. Just don't pretend that religion doesn't have any value today. That's patently false even to someone who has a long history of taking a whip to fundies.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by humbolt View Post
    A correction to my previous post. The restaurant owner said they would not cater a gay wedding. Apparently there was no request to do such a thing - just a reporter asking if they would. So there was no discrimination because no action was taken.
    It should be noted as well that the news show went trolling to find just such a business. I hope the reporter is proud of his own bigotry

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Note: Had to reduce what is quoted due
    No prob

    Discrimination once did cause harm to commerce across the US. It no longer does. There are far too many businesses and people for that to happen anymore. Not to mention the change in society.
    The fact that an entire state (actually several states) just passed such laws showed that isn't true.

    Yes it is. Or would you really want a coal power plant sitting right next to your house? How about a garbage dump that is privately ran? Or how about a steel factory? Bet you'd highly object to the harmful chemicals being spewed out right next to your house for health issues...and rightly so.
    No, it's not. Arguing about what I don't *want* does not make it an environmental issue and as far as dangers substances being emitted, if there are laws that prohibit such emissions (which would be environmental laws) then there would be no such safety objection to living next door to such a facility. The reason for such zoning laws is to protect land values which is commerce, not safety.


    When it comes to the US you would be wrong where it concerns the federal government. When the Constitution was originally written the only power the Feds had was to basically be an arbiter between states when it came to interstate commerce. That changed when the Constitution started to be re-interpreted.

    As far as the States goes, only so far as it concerns harm.
    SCOTUS was given the power to make such decisions by the constitution itself, so it is illogical to argue that their decision is unconstitutional. You are free to believe that the constitution must be interpreted in a certain way, but the constitution itself does not require original intent to play such an important and overriding role.

    And wrt states, wrong. States have *always* had the power the regulate intrastate commerce for reasons other than safety. Again, zoning laws.

    Tell me the "safety" concern with zoning laws that require homes to be on a plot of land of a minimum size (around me it's 1/4 acre) or the requirement to provide easements. (on edit: Minimum wage laws)

    That wasn't the point of what I said. The whole "no harm no foul" in regards to your stance on MJ had to do with your belief that the government should not be regulating it because it doesn't harm anyone. Is that stance only applicable to something that you are for?
    I don't have a no harm no foul stance on MJ nor do I believe that "no harm" is the only consideration (which should be clear by now). You're looking for a contradiction that doesn't exist. I have long held, and posted, that the govts power is not limited to protecting rights and people from harm. I believe that govts in general (and ours in particular, as enshrined in our constitution) have an legitimate interest in promoting commerce

    Yet that is exactly what's happening by you wanting the government to enforce the affirmative action laws when it comes to forcing businesses to provide a service to someone that they do not want to.
    No, regulating (to promote commerce) consumers is not the same as regulating businesses. The latter has long been considered a legitimate exercise of govt power. The former has only been considered legitimate by totalitarian regimes.

    But hey, lets use another example. Same question only in place of CT input the businesses that threatened to pull out of Indiana. Or those businesses that pulled their ads from Rush Limbaugh show due to his perceived racism? I could use many many MANY more examples. It all ends the same.
    Businesses that make decisions based on the laws of a state is a legitimate exception as I explained earlier. So too are advertising decisions that can affect how a brand is perceived.

    As for your point. It doesn't apply to today's society anymore.
    The popularity of such laws prove you wrong and I've explained how even a small portion engaging in this discrimination can have a wide effect.


    So....force servitude. No thanks. Some inconveniences are worth the Right to association. No matter what impact it may or may not have.
    The balance between the powers of govt and the rights of individuals is a legitimate issue. Our founders chose to have such issues determined through a political process which is democratic in nature. It is not "slavery" (ie forced servitude) when the people support the law

    It's democracy
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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Apparently they have no problem with homosexuals since they have stated that if they come through the door wanting a pizza then they will sell them one with absolutely no problem in doing so. They just wouldn't cater a gay wedding. Its gay weddings that they are against. Not gays themselves.

    And there's a difference between statistics and polls. Polls might use statistics, but statistics do not use polls. Polls are mainly about peoples opinions. Statistics rely more on math and facts.
    I believe i already accused them of lying on that, just like their attention whoring by going out of their way to bash gay weddings. I don't see anything of value in their antics.

    christian persecution complex depends on making oneself the victim. Easiest way to do that is claim to "love the sinner, hate the sin," or claim to serve the non existent gay couples and just stop short at supporting the wedding. Reality is they hate sinner, or would not have opened their fat mouths to begin with. There's literally no purpose to what they did, other than to be pricks

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Apparently they have no problem with homosexuals since they have stated that if they come through the door wanting a pizza then they will sell them one with absolutely no problem in doing so. They just wouldn't cater a gay wedding. Its gay weddings that they are against. Not gays themselves.

    And there's a difference between statistics and polls. Polls might use statistics, but statistics do not use polls. Polls are mainly about peoples opinions. Statistics rely more on math and facts.
    How would they know a customer was gay or lesbian? Should they be wearing rainbow pins or pink stars? I'll bet the pizza place has never encountered a bunch of Bears "
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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