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Thread: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed[W:1581]

  1. #1981
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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Blemonds View Post
    That discusses prohibiting conduct, like the human sacrifice hypothetical our liberal friends love to trot out. What this public accomodation laws are being used for now is to force conduct
    Read the whole ruling bub.


    "It may fairly be said that leaving accommodation to the political process will place at a relative disadvantage those religious practices that are not widely engaged in;

    but that unavoidable consequence of democratic government must be preferred to a system in which each conscience is a law unto itself or in which judges weigh the social importance of all laws against the centrality of all religious beliefs."


    They weren't just talking about human sacrifice.

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Blemonds View Post
    What people miss is that the Bill of Rights is about what government cannot do to the citizens. Our liberal friends have moved on to believe that government is there to force citizens to do what they don't want to do, and they don't recognize that as the early onset of tyranny
    Actually, if we are now forcing Christian bakers who believe that gay marriage is an aberration to bake cakes for gay weddings then tyranny is at an advanced state.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Blemonds View Post
    That discusses prohibiting conduct, like the human sacrifice hypothetical our liberal friends love to trot out. What this public accomodation laws are being used for now is to force conduct
    Force conduct of everyone, not force conduct of people just based on their religious convictions. This is exactly what they are talking about and confirmed by the fact that the owner of Piggie Park Enterprises tried to use that as a defense for why the public accommodation laws should not apply to him, why he should be exempted, because his beliefs came from his religious views. The SCOTUS shot that argument down completely.

    The Time A Corporation Cited Religious Freedom As A Way To Avoid Desegregation | Right Wing Watch

    Antidiscrimination laws are neutral in their application. They do not target religious beliefs.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Has J-mac been calling for human sacrifices again?? That's gotta stop!
    Hardly. But if you make absurd statements like "The right to practice religion is absolute", then you're agreeing that people should be free to practice their religion in any way they see fit. And that means that there's no legal basis to deny human sacrifice of a willing victim.

    Freedom of religion does not mean that YOU have a right to practice your religion in anyway you see fit, but other people of other religions don't. That's why all rights have limitations, otherwise we have anarchy.

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    More, from a rude pundit on that case, and the Scalia majority ruling (which has a direct line to today's RFRA's):

    <snip>
    "And that's because it was designed to undo the ****ery of the Supreme Court in a couple of cases, most specifically the 1990 decision in Employment Division v Smith. In the 6-3 majority's decision, the Court held that the state of Oregon could deny unemployment benefits to two drug counselors who had been fired because they had taken peyote as part of a Native American religious ceremony.

    The Court especially had issue with the idea that the state might not have a "compelling interest" in using drug laws against the two men. Said the Court, "If the 'compelling interest' test is to be applied at all, then, it must be applied across the board, to all actions thought to be religiously commanded.

    Moreover, if 'compelling interest' really means what it says (and watering it down here would subvert its rigor in the other fields where it is applied), many laws will not meet the test.

    Any society adopting such a system would be courting anarchy, but that danger increases in direct proportion to the society's diversity of religious beliefs, and its determination to coerce or suppress none of them. Precisely because 'we are a cosmopolitan nation made up of people of almost every conceivable religious preference'...

    and precisely because we value and protect that religious divergence, we cannot afford the luxury of deeming presumptively invalid, as applied to the religious objector, every regulation of conduct that does not protect an interest of the highest order. The rule respondents favor would open the prospect of constitutionally required religious exemptions from civic obligations of almost every conceivable kind."


    The decision goes on to list these obligations, like "compulsory military service," "health and safety regulation such as manslaughter and child neglect laws" even minimum wage laws. In some ways, the decision makes a great deal of sense. It's just in the case of the Smith defendants, the overreach is kind of stunning.

    By the way, you know who wrote this decision that smacked down religion as a reason to violate laws? Antonin Scalia."

    The Rude Pundit: History Lesson for Assholes: Bill Clinton Is Not Your Religious "Freedom" Tool

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Back in business with a million dollars in their pocket and customers lined up. Life is good.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

  7. #1987
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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    I've recently become GoFundMe curious.

    :p

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Paperview View Post
    More, from a rude pundit on that case, and the Scalia majority ruling (which has a direct line to today's RFRA's):

    <snip>
    "And that's because it was designed to undo the ****ery of the Supreme Court in a couple of cases, most specifically the 1990 decision in Employment Division v Smith. In the 6-3 majority's decision, the Court held that the state of Oregon could deny unemployment benefits to two drug counselors who had been fired because they had taken peyote as part of a Native American religious ceremony.

    The Court especially had issue with the idea that the state might not have a "compelling interest" in using drug laws against the two men. Said the Court, "If the 'compelling interest' test is to be applied at all, then, it must be applied across the board, to all actions thought to be religiously commanded.

    Moreover, if 'compelling interest' really means what it says (and watering it down here would subvert its rigor in the other fields where it is applied), many laws will not meet the test.

    Any society adopting such a system would be courting anarchy, but that danger increases in direct proportion to the society's diversity of religious beliefs, and its determination to coerce or suppress none of them. Precisely because 'we are a cosmopolitan nation made up of people of almost every conceivable religious preference'...

    and precisely because we value and protect that religious divergence, we cannot afford the luxury of deeming presumptively invalid, as applied to the religious objector, every regulation of conduct that does not protect an interest of the highest order. The rule respondents favor would open the prospect of constitutionally required religious exemptions from civic obligations of almost every conceivable kind."


    The decision goes on to list these obligations, like "compulsory military service," "health and safety regulation such as manslaughter and child neglect laws" even minimum wage laws. In some ways, the decision makes a great deal of sense. It's just in the case of the Smith defendants, the overreach is kind of stunning.

    By the way, you know who wrote this decision that smacked down religion as a reason to violate laws? Antonin Scalia."

    The Rude Pundit: History Lesson for Assholes: Bill Clinton Is Not Your Religious "Freedom" Tool
    As the Hobby Lobby case shows, religious freedom is far from being completely negated. It's not the case that religion can never be a valid reason to be granted exceptions to laws. Moreover, they are talking about laws that have no intent to restrict or promote religious expression, that have good reasons for existing aside from that. Laws that restrict religious expression qua religious expression are unconstitutional.

    These judges argue that since America is so religiously diverse that religion can never be a consideration. That's a bit too cynical and too unconsititional. It's the court's job to weigh these competing rights. They are not at liberty to just negate a right across the board because they think it too hard to consider it.
    Last edited by LowDown; 04-10-15 at 11:17 AM.

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Back in business with a million dollars in their pocket and customers lined up. Life is good.
    The pizza place far beat out cancer patients and Boston Marathon bombing victims. Yay religion!

  10. #1990
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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Actually, if we are now forcing Christian bakers who believe that gay marriage is an aberration to bake cakes for gay weddings then tyranny is at an advanced state.
    ...

    While I personally do not believe religious folk should be forced to provide services that may contradict their religious beliefs I think your emotional hyperbole is probably not going to help advance that case. But it does make me happy to see people citing religious liberty as their motivation because in the long run that is going to lead to greater tolerance for everyone because freedom of conscience flows both ways.

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