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Thread: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed[W:1581]

  1. #1971
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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    I wonder what their pizza is like?
    Straight

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Of over 40K different denominations, and hundreds of thousands, if not more, smaller pockets of beliefs and levels of beliefs. Pretty much every single one of those Christians have their own sets of beliefs, that differ, even if just a little bit, from every other Christian in the US.

    Freedom of religion does not just recognize "mainstream" religious beliefs. All religious beliefs are protected to the same extent as all others, to the point where they cannot infringe upon other people's lives and rights, including what has been established as "civil rights".
    I don't see an answer to my question in there....Is that because you can't find any?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

  3. #1973
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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I don't see an answer to my question in there....Is that because you can't find any?
    Because your question was similar to "when did you stop beating your wife". We were discussing how the Constitution applies to religious beliefs, which includes all religious beliefs, not just those that come from the Bible.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Because your question was similar to "when did you stop beating your wife". We were discussing how the Constitution applies to religious beliefs, which includes all religious beliefs, not just those that come from the Bible.
    : You're not understanding the conversation....You, and others brought up human sacrifice as though it was even relevant to this...And I asked you to name any main stream religions practiced today in the United States that call for human sacrifice. So far, you have danced all around it without answering the question. So, I'll just leave it there and take your dodging for what it is, and that is that you know your foolish venture into the absurd was just plain ignorant, and you shot off your mouth without thinking...

    But, I will help you....

    "Amendment I

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitu...irst_amendment

    So, the overall final verdict is unfortunately for you, that NO you don't get to restrict peoples free exercise of their religion just because you have some special interest you think should gain consideration over that religions belief....At least not constitutionally.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    : You're not understanding the conversation....You, and others brought up human sacrifice as though it was even relevant to this...And I asked you to name any main stream religions practiced today in the United States that call for human sacrifice. So far, you have danced all around it without answering the question. So, I'll just leave it there and take your dodging for what it is, and that is that you know your foolish venture into the absurd was just plain ignorant, and you shot off your mouth without thinking...

    But, I will help you....

    "Amendment I

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitu...irst_amendment

    So, the overall final verdict is unfortunately for you, that NO you don't get to restrict peoples free exercise of their religion just because you have some special interest you think should gain consideration over that religions belief....At least not constitutionally.
    Because human sacrifice is a religious belief that has existed and could exist as a part of religion. It is extreme, but still an example of where the Constitution limits people's religion. Another would be in the consequences of actions (which I did mention and you ignored) for sins/wrongdoing in many religions, which include killing people for various offenses. And yes, those are in the Bible.

    Actually, you are wrong, we do restrict people in the "free exercise" of some beliefs. If someone feels that the Bible compels them to kill homosexuals or witches (and they view practicing Wiccans or palm readers as witches) or that the Koran compels them to beat their disobedient wives or kill their promiscuous daughters or sisters, they are prevented from doing those things by our laws that are based on religious beliefs.

    And here are the verses that support those people who might believe those things:

    Exodus 22:18 - Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
    Leviticus 20:13 - If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    Heck, apparently President Obama's own grandmother believes that beating disobedient wives is okay. And this, although a relatively minor belief at least here in the US, is still a belief in many different religions, including some fundamentalist Christian sects.

    My respond to the so called "Wife Beating is allowed at anytime" lie against Islam:

    And while there are plenty of honor killings outside of Islam, and they are denounced by many Muslims, especially since they are not reportedly condone by the Koran, they are still seen by too many Muslims as a religious necessity to maintain family honor.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    : You're not understanding the conversation....You, and others brought up human sacrifice as though it was even relevant to this...And I asked you to name any main stream religions practiced today in the United States that call for human sacrifice. So far, you have danced all around it without answering the question. So, I'll just leave it there and take your dodging for what it is, and that is that you know your foolish venture into the absurd was just plain ignorant, and you shot off your mouth without thinking...

    But, I will help you....

    "Amendment I

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitu...irst_amendment

    So, the overall final verdict is unfortunately for you, that NO you don't get to restrict peoples free exercise of their religion just because you have some special interest you think should gain consideration over that religions belief....At least not constitutionally.
    I'll keep dragging this out as many times as I have to...

    Take it away, Antonin Scalia ...

    "We have never held that an individual's religious beliefs excuse him from compliance with an otherwise valid law prohibiting conduct that the State is free to regulate.

    On the contrary, the record of more than a century of our free exercise jurisprudence contradicts that proposition.
    "

    And, also (quoting Justice Frankfurter):

    Conscientious scruples have not, in the course of the long struggle for religious toleration, relieved the individual from obedience to a general law not aimed at the promotion or restriction of religious beliefs.

    Also, too:

    Subsequent decisions have consistently held that the right of free exercise does not relieve an individual of the obligation to comply with a "valid and neutral law of general applicability on the ground that the law proscribes (or prescribes) conduct that his religion prescribes (or proscribes)."

    And, finally:


    It may fairly be said that leaving accommodation to the political process will place at a relative disadvantage those religious practices that are not widely engaged in;

    but that unavoidable consequence of democratic government must be preferred to a system in which each conscience is a law unto itself or in which judges weigh the social importance of all laws against the centrality of all religious beliefs.

    LINK

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Paperview View Post
    I'll keep dragging this out as many times as I have to...

    Take it away, Antonin Scalia ...

    "We have never held that an individual's religious beliefs excuse him from compliance with an otherwise valid law prohibiting conduct that the State is free to regulate.

    On the contrary, the record of more than a century of our free exercise jurisprudence contradicts that proposition.
    "

    And, also (quoting Justice Frankfurter):

    Conscientious scruples have not, in the course of the long struggle for religious toleration, relieved the individual from obedience to a general law not aimed at the promotion or restriction of religious beliefs.

    Also, too:

    Subsequent decisions have consistently held that the right of free exercise does not relieve an individual of the obligation to comply with a "valid and neutral law of general applicability on the ground that the law proscribes (or prescribes) conduct that his religion prescribes (or proscribes)."

    And, finally:


    It may fairly be said that leaving accommodation to the political process will place at a relative disadvantage those religious practices that are not widely engaged in;

    but that unavoidable consequence of democratic government must be preferred to a system in which each conscience is a law unto itself or in which judges weigh the social importance of all laws against the centrality of all religious beliefs.

    LINK
    That discusses prohibiting conduct, like the human sacrifice hypothetical our liberal friends love to trot out. What this public accomodation laws are being used for now is to force conduct

  8. #1978
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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    : You're not understanding the conversation....You, and others brought up human sacrifice as though it was even relevant to this...And I asked you to name any main stream religions practiced today in the United States that call for human sacrifice. So far, you have danced all around it without answering the question. So, I'll just leave it there and take your dodging for what it is, and that is that you know your foolish venture into the absurd was just plain ignorant, and you shot off your mouth without thinking...

    But, I will help you....

    "Amendment I

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitu...irst_amendment

    So, the overall final verdict is unfortunately for you, that NO you don't get to restrict peoples free exercise of their religion just because you have some special interest you think should gain consideration over that religions belief....At least not constitutionally.
    Well you know...the Bill of Rights WAS written to protect the Government. No...wait...it was businesses...right? Organizations. That must be it. The Bill of Rights was to protect organizations.NOT...the rights of the individu....hey...wait a second...

  9. #1979
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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Well you know...the Bill of Rights WAS written to protect the Government. No...wait...it was businesses...right? Organizations. That must be it. The Bill of Rights was to protect organizations.NOT...the rights of the individu....hey...wait a second...
    What people miss is that the Bill of Rights is about what government cannot do to the citizens. Our liberal friends have moved on to believe that government is there to force citizens to do what they don't want to do, and they don't recognize that as the early onset of tyranny

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Well you know...the Bill of Rights WAS written to protect the Government. No...wait...it was businesses...right? Organizations. That must be it. The Bill of Rights was to protect organizations.NOT...the rights of the individu....hey...wait a second...
    Rights guaranteed by the Bill of Rights have penumbras. For example, a state government might try to get around the 2nd amendment by banning the sale and possession of ammunition. Sure, you can have your guns, but you can't legally possess ammunition, they'd say. But that would be unconstitional because its effect is to negate the 2nd amendment.

    The right to free speech is negated if people are forbidden to speak when they form associations like unions or corporations, therefore that restriction is unconstitutional.

    I suspect that the courts will also find that this secular tendency to say that religious people can believe whatever they want so long as they don't express it in public or practice their beliefs in public is an unconstitutional abridgement of freedom of religion.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

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