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Thread: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed[W:1581]

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    We already have a test. Its called demonstrable harm. Which is why libel laws trump our Right to free speech. It causes harm. It is also why people cannot sacrifice someone due to religious convictions. It causes demonstrable harm.

    So lets take what's going on as an example. For now lets take out what is being served. IE the material object. Because this isn't so much about the material object as it is about whether our right to freedom of association is trumped by law. Currently we have several types of businesses that have stated that due to their religious beliefs they will not provide service and/or products to SSM. However they WILL provide service and/or products to gay couples for any other reason. This demonstrates that they are not discriminating against sexual orientation. Yes or no? Now, where is the demonstrable harm caused to gay couples for a bakery to refuse them service based on an act that that particular bakery is against but will otherwise serve them and provide their products for anything and everything else?

    And there is the rub and what so many are ignoring. These Christian business owners are not refusing their service based on sexual orientation. They are basing it on an act. An act which goes against their religion to be sure. But still an act. Unless you believe that two fe/males heterosexuals cannot get married and that they are only basing this on sexual orientation I see no reason that any anti-discrimination that we currently have should even be applied.
    That's a good analysis. It removes all of the extraneous BS and gets down to the actual heart of the matter.

    The state has a compelling interest to protect a consumers right to "reasonable expectations of service". It's a concept that undergirds much of contract and property law. A person has a right to the free exercise of their religion. The question is which wins in which situation.

    Obviously the right to free exercise of religion is limited. As an extreme example, you cannot kidnap and murder someone because you're a practising Canaanite.

    So which wins here? Lets find similar situations. If you are a baker then you are making a product used in an event. This is no different than manufacturing a sign, printing documents, making clothing, building furniture, etc.... And as you rightly point out, the question is not who buys these products, but how are they used. An easy way to see this is to ask yourself how the argument would change if a baker was asked to make a wedding cake by a straight couple, who then gave the wedding cake to a gay couple for a gay wedding. Would not any objection to providing a wedding cake to a gay couple not also hold if there was a middle broker? The baker can't then be objecting to selling a wedding cake to a gay couple, instead the baker must be objecting to a cake that they made being used at a gay wedding.

    That means that the general form of the religious freedom in question here is the right for a manufacturer to restrict the uses of their products according to privately held beliefs. Can a Christian table cloth manufacturer ban the use of their tablecloths at a gay wedding? Clearly not. Not only does the states interest outweigh whatever supposed religious freedom this company has, but examine the path of any enforcement. The manufacturer would have to bring suit against the gay wedding on the grounds that the use of their tablecloths was a violation of their religious freedoms which resulted in monetary harm.

    I doubt any court would find this compelling.

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    Are you a public accommodation? Because then you would have to, that is the law.
    That is not necessarily true of all things a law may define as public accommodations. You seem to have the notion that state public accommodations laws are absolute and unquestionable. They are not. The Constitution is a law, too, and it trumps all others in this country.

    The Supreme Court has twice held, on First Amendment grounds, that state public accommodations laws which prohibited discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation were unconstitutional as applied. In Hurley, in 1995, it held a Massachusetts law violated the freedom of speech by requiring the organizers of a St. Patrick's Day parade to include an Irish-American homosexual group. And in Dale, in 2000, the Court held a New Jersey law violated the freedom of expressive association by prohibiting a Boy Scouts council from terminating the membership of an assistant scoutmaster when it learned he was a homosexual.

    Even where the pubic accommodation is a more orthodox one than those in Hurley or Dale, state laws that prohibit them from discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation may in some cases be government-compelled speech--the basis for striking down the law in Hurley. Where a person who disapproves of homosexuality is compelled to endorse or celebrate it, even symbolically, the law which compels that may violate the freedom of speech. Words or symbols celebrating same-sex marriage in the decoration of a wedding cake are expressive speech. So are artistically arranged photographs meant to celebrate that marriage. And a person who has to let his wedding chapel be used for a same-sex marriage is being compelled to endorse it.


    In his concurring opinion in Pruneyard Shopping Center, one of the Court's First Amendment compelled-speech decisions, Justice Powell said this:

    A person who has merely invited the public onto his property for commercial purposes cannot fairly be said to have relinquished his right to decline to be an instrument for fostering public adherence to an ideological point of view he finds unacceptable.

    If a state law mandated public access to the bulletin board of a freestanding store, hotel, office, or small shopping center . . . the property owner or proprietor would be faced with a choice: he either could permit his customers to receive a mistaken impression or he could disavow the messages. Should he take the first course, he effectively has been compelled to affirm someone else's belief. Should he choose the second, he has been forced to speak when he would prefer to remain silent. In short, he has lost control over his freedom to speak or not to speak on certain issues. The mere fact that he is free to dissociate himself from the views expressed on his property, cannot restore his right to refrain from speaking at all.

    A property owner also may be faced with speakers who wish to use his premises as a platform for views that he finds morally repugnant . . . A minority-owned business confronted with leaflet distributors from the American Nazi Party or the Ku Klux Klan, a church-operated enterprise asked to host demonstrations in favor of abortion, or a union compelled to supply a forum to right-to-work advocates could be placed in an intolerable position if state law requires it to make its private property available to anyone who wishes to speak . . . .

    The pressure to respond is particularly apparent when the owner has taken a position opposed to the view being expressed on his property . . . the right to control one's own speech may be burdened impermissibly even when listeners will not assume that the messages expressed on private property are those of the owner . . . .

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    No, being angry at inhuman discriminators and hatemongers elicits that kind of emotion. Christians think they are still above respecting the rights of others (sadly) and other religious groups seem to have that same problem.
    Look at the world around you and you'll see Christians being murdered simply for expressing their faith and Gays being murdered for being born homosexual.

    This nonsense about making a hypothetical pizza delivery trivializes the genuine loss of human rights and human lives.

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Meh...a few more video taped attempts to have Muslims cater to gay marriages, a couple of law suits...and this stuff all goes away.
    The good news is that the first attempt to actual legalize the right to discriminate went down in flames. It will be a while, if ever, that a state tries to pull this kind of BS again....and that is great news for America.

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    The good news is that the first attempt to actual legalize the right to discriminate went down in flames. It will be a while, if ever, that a state tries to pull this kind of BS again....and that is great news for America.
    Meanwhile...back on the reservation....

    Two Largest Native American Tribes In U.S. Ban Gay Marriage
    AP: Handful of holdout tribes dig in against gay marriage - NUJournal.com | News, Sports, Jobs - The Journal, New Ulm, MN
    A List of Tribal Laws Prohibiting Gay Marriage - ABC News
    Largest Native American Tribes Ban Same-Sex Marriages | MRCTV

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Indian tribes are their own soverign nation. Lets see another state try to pull what Indiana tried to pull. I bet you won't see anyone try it again...or at least for many years.

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    The good news is that the first attempt to actual legalize the right to discriminate went down in flames. It will be a while, if ever, that a state tries to pull this kind of BS again....and that is great news for America.
    Gay weddings are an abomination. You don't see even one in the Bible, and there's not one gay sexual relationship noted in scripture that is God-ordained or God-approved.

    Just six verses after gay sex is condemned in Leviticus 18, we read the following: "So do not defile the land and give it a reason to vomit you out..."

    I applaud the owners of the Pizzeria for standing up for righteousness. That's what America is all about - religious freedom and standing tall for righteousness. Those who oppose them are flat-out wrong.
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    Gay weddings are an abomination. You don't see even one in the Bible, and there's not one gay sexual relationship noted in scripture that is God-ordained or God-approved.Just six verses after gay sex is condemned in Leviticus 18, we read the following: "So do not defile the land and give it a reason to vomit you out..." I applaud the owners of the Pizzeria for standing up for righteousness. That's what America is all about - religious freedom. Those who oppose them are flat-out wrong.
    LOL....it is quite ironic that you quote Leviticus without either realizing or recognizing that the Pizzeria itself violates Leviticus. Your post is CLASSIC!

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    LOL....it is quite ironic that you quote Leviticus without either realizing or recognizing that the Pizzeria itself violates Leviticus. Your post is CLASSIC!
    I believe Jesus declared all foods clean in Mark 7:19, but he never declared gay marriage a legitimate enterprise.
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    I believe Jesus declared all foods clean in Mark 7:19, but he never declared gay marriage a legitimate enterprise.
    Care to point out for all to see....where exactly Jesus ever spoke about homosexuality. We'll be waiting.

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