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Thread: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed[W:1581]

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTrumps View Post
    again, I go back to the main argument the gay marriage used during this entire issue: how will gay people getting married effect you? they assumed the response would be crickets. well, we now see the effect. people losing their businesses and being threatened with harm. and it's bound to happen again and again.
    Actually, no. This has very little to do with same sex marriage being legal. The cake things are a perfect example of this because neither occurred with same sex marriage legal in that state at the time the couples were denied cakes based on their same sex "marriages".
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    They're not losing their jobs because of SSM. They're losing their jobs due to their bigotry
    so if an old jewish couple with a deli in brooklyn refuses to cater a gay marriage on religious grounds, you would walk/stride in, call them bigots, then sign a petition to have the store closed. and you would be proud of yourself(ohhhh so proud)

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    This entire discussion is entirely on the question, "should people of faith gain exceptions to laws that apply to everyone else if it violates a deeply held religious belief"? (At least the intelligent discussions)

    If the answer is no then we have no rights. If the answer is yes, then we have anarchy. And if the answer is sometimes, then we need some sort of test. Rights can trump laws, but rights don't always trump laws. Free speech doesn't legalize libel.

    So someone can say that their religion is anything they want. But that doesn't give them the right to exercise that religion.
    We already have a test. Its called demonstrable harm. Which is why libel laws trump our Right to free speech. It causes harm. It is also why people cannot sacrifice someone due to religious convictions. It causes demonstrable harm.

    So lets take what's going on as an example. For now lets take out what is being served. IE the material object. Because this isn't so much about the material object as it is about whether our right to freedom of association is trumped by law. Currently we have several types of businesses that have stated that due to their religious beliefs they will not provide service and/or products to SSM. However they WILL provide service and/or products to gay couples for any other reason. This demonstrates that they are not discriminating against sexual orientation. Yes or no? Now, where is the demonstrable harm caused to gay couples for a bakery to refuse them service based on an act that that particular bakery is against but will otherwise serve them and provide their products for anything and everything else?

    And there is the rub and what so many are ignoring. These Christian business owners are not refusing their service based on sexual orientation. They are basing it on an act. An act which goes against their religion to be sure. But still an act. Unless you believe that two fe/males heterosexuals cannot get married and that they are only basing this on sexual orientation I see no reason that any anti-discrimination that we currently have should even be applied.
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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    And they still did not have the right to deny selling them a wedding cake.
    Yes they do. The fact that the government is denying them that right is no different then when our government also denied people their right to be free. IE: It is an invalid use of government force in both instances.
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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTrumps View Post
    so if an old jewish couple with a deli in brooklyn refuses to cater a gay marriage on religious grounds, you would walk/stride in, call them bigots, then sign a petition to have the store closed. and you would be proud of yourself(ohhhh so proud)
    Yes, I am proud to be opposed to bigotry
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    We already have a test. Its called demonstrable harm. Which is why libel laws trump our Right to free speech. It causes harm. It is also why people cannot sacrifice someone due to religious convictions. It causes demonstrable harm.

    So lets take what's going on as an example. For now lets take out what is being served. IE the material object. Because this isn't so much about the material object as it is about whether our right to freedom of association is trumped by law. Currently we have several types of businesses that have stated that due to their religious beliefs they will not provide service and/or products to SSM. However they WILL provide service and/or products to gay couples for any other reason. This demonstrates that they are not discriminating against sexual orientation. Yes or no?
    It's discrimination. It's like laying a tax on yarmulkes. You can say you're not targeting a specific group, but no one is fooled.

    Now, where is the demonstrable harm caused to gay couples for a bakery to refuse them service based on an act that that particular bakery is against but will otherwise serve them and provide their products for anything and everything else?
    The demonstrable harm is the harm to commerce that discrimination creates.

    And there is the rub and what you are ignoring. There doesn't have to be a demonstrable harm to an individual (though in these cases there is) in order to justify a law; demonstrable harm to a legitimate govt interest is sufficient.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Yes they do. The fact that the government is denying them that right is no different then when our government also denied people their right to be free. IE: It is an invalid use of government force in both instances.
    There is no legal right to discriminate! And there is also no moral right to do so.

    The fact that these moron bakers think they have a religious right to discriminate is bull crap, un-Christian, evil, immoral and illegal. And not allowing public accommodations to discriminate is nothing like governments denying people the right to be free, the only thing this law prevents is asswipe bakers from discriminate and that is just great, no invalid use of government force but a government who enforces the civil rights of everybody in America to not discriminated against for their color, gender, age or religion.

    A wedding cake is not a religious expression of faith, it is a party cake for 2 people who have joined in a lasting partnership and just because there are haters who want to deny gays the happiness of marriage is bad enough, but to deny them a cake when they are participating in a legally allowed practice of marriage is nothing short but petty and disgusting of these bakers.

    If there is a heaven they will be judged for their crimes against their fellow man just like they are here on earth, it is not their place to judge last time I checked and it is not their place to decide who is allowed to marry or not, that is the people, not the Christian Taliban of America.
    the First Amendment gives everyone “the right to be very critical of a Petty, handicapped mocking, unbalanced, whiny so-called President and criticize him strongly.”

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    There is no legal right to discriminate! And there is also no moral right to do so.

    The fact that these moron bakers think they have a religious right to discriminate is bull crap, un-Christian, evil, immoral and illegal. And not allowing public accommodations to discriminate is nothing like governments denying people the right to be free, the only thing this law prevents is asswipe bakers from discriminate and that is just great, no invalid use of government force but a government who enforces the civil rights of everybody in America to not discriminated against for their color, gender, age or religion.

    A wedding cake is not a religious expression of faith, it is a party cake for 2 people who have joined in a lasting partnership and just because there are haters who want to deny gays the happiness of marriage is bad enough, but to deny them a cake when they are participating in a legally allowed practice of marriage is nothing short but petty and disgusting of these bakers.

    If there is a heaven they will be judged for their crimes against their fellow man just like they are here on earth, it is not their place to judge last time I checked and it is not their place to decide who is allowed to marry or not, that is the people, not the Christian Taliban of America.
    Quite an emotional post there.

    Show me where any of these Christian bakeries decided whether a gay couple can or cannot get married.

    Oh right, they didn't. They refused their service because they did not want to condone nor participate in any way shape or form to something that they believe is wrong.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Quite an emotional post there.

    Show me where any of these Christian bakeries decided whether a gay couple can or cannot get married.

    Oh right, they didn't. They refused their service because they did not want to condone nor participate in any way shape or form to something that they believe is wrong.
    the plumber who fixed my toilet last night did not condone or participate in the crap I took this morning.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    It's discrimination. It's like laying a tax on yarmulkes. You can say you're not targeting a specific group, but no one is fooled.
    1: I have never said it wasn't discrimination. You can stop saying it as if I have said that its not.
    2: Everyone discriminates in some way shape or form every single day.
    3: You do not have the Right to determine that someone is lying without any proof. And you have none. One of these businesses that has been discussed has been serving and providing products to the gay couple that sued them for years. That is evidence that they did not lie or tried to "fool" anyone. Or do you believe that two fe/males cannot legally get married?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    The demonstrable harm is the harm to commerce that discrimination creates.

    And there is the rub and what you are ignoring. There doesn't have to be a demonstrable harm to an individual (though in these cases there is) in order to justify a law; demonstrable harm to a legitimate govt interest is sufficient.
    You have already been shown how you are wrong on this by me and others. Just because you keep parroting it doesn't make it true or applicable to what we are discussing. I'll not be taking a ride on the merry go round thank you.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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