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Thread: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I dont think that changes my response at all. They dont have to suffer at all....there is no right to not be offended.

    And again, it's a perfect example of letting the market, the people, decide. Do you see religious verses up in businesses? Yes. Do you see anti-Muslim or anti-gay or racist signage up in businesses? Not a whole lot...because that would harm business.
    Fair enough and I say this as a Christian, I would not go into a business that would decide that my gay or minority friends are not welcomed. In fact, with very rare exception, I think such a business would not be in business very long and I'd be fine with that.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    No, I'm taking into account the 'sympathizer boycott'. I think that it would vary based on demographics: local culture, and how cosmopolitan the local community is.


    You could have a "no gays" sign in my home town and probably still stay in business. Some people would boycott but some would actively support you. It probably would balance out near equally, or down only a little.

    In Atlanta (same region), you'd be out of business pretty quickly I'd think. Atlanta is far more cosmopolitan than my semi-rural county.
    You'd be surprised....many would see it even as a slippery slope.....who will they discriminate against next? But I dont believe most Americans will accept blatant discrimination...they like it hidden in the shadows where very obviously, it lingers still.

    Or maybe I'd be surprised....it is speculation of course.
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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    You'd be surprised....many would see it even as a slippery slope.....who will they discriminate against next? But I dont believe most Americans will accept blatant discrimination...they like it hidden in the shadows where very obviously, it lingers still.

    Or maybe I'd be surprised....it is speculation of course.

    Yup, and for the most part it will probably stay speculation.

    Still though, if some business owner/operator "doesn't like my kind", I'd really like to know that BEFORE I pay them to serve me lunch, bake my cake, or photograph my event. I'd take my biz elsewhere if for no other reason than I'd prolly get better service.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    It's not fair to the customers, to come somewhere when they could go elsewhere, to go in and shop, etc, and then be told to leave. It wastes their time. I realize you dont care about that but you'd prefer there would be no business licenses or oversight at all. No health dept inspections, no safety inspections, so really, as usual your opinions are in the realm of fantasy. As you said, it's not smart and most would not do it. You like to make ridiculous statements with no real practicability like they are the libertarian High Ground and realistic and 'sound good. They are not.
    I have said before that food inspection can be done by the market place. It's not like the government does anything in terms of food inspection and notification of inspection that the market can't do.

    Anyway, if all you have is that it is not fair then I can't say I'm all that moved by your argument. You're not somehow owed an easy time finding willing sellers.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    A short while ago Gov. Mike Pence held a press conference to say that he asking for legislation by the end of the week to clarify the RFRA law he signed last week. Key in his statement:


    Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Ok then. If that is the "fix" he signs, we're good to go and all arguments to the contrary, that the law was intended to permit the denial of service to anyone under the color of religious freedom, were in error.
    I agree, i just cant help but wonder if that wasnt the intent of the bill what was its purpose for not mirroring the other bills more? ANd what was the reason for flat out rejecting some restrictions the other bills already had.

    As soon as the verbiage was that general, it was expanded beyond a person and government into business and public and the rejection of civil rights and or sexual orientation exemptions things got real shady real fast and thats why many people were/are greatly concerned.

    ayway i hope its fixed properly. I still dont understand its need and what it does that the constitution and anti-discrimination laws dont already do for me if i lived there but as long as the horrible grey areas are fixed I do agree with you, no harm no foul
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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Yup, and for the most part it will probably stay speculation.

    Still though, if some business owner/operator "doesn't like my kind", I'd really like to know that BEFORE I pay them to serve me lunch, bake my cake, or photograph my event. I'd take my biz elsewhere if for no other reason than I'd prolly get better service.
    Heh, that made me think of this.


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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    I will disagree with you on that. It is due to the marketplace, which partially consists of the states of Connecticut and Washington and the other entities refusing to do business in Indiana, that caused this change of heart to come about. There is no court involved at this point in time.
    In this particular instance the courts aren't involved (yet) but they have been in the past and there is no reason to think they won't be in the future whether legislation like what we had here in AZ and what Pence recently signed are enacted or not.

    My personal opinion on this matter is that whether I agree with someone's position on an issue or not I don't like to see them bullied and that's exactly what I perceive as happening to a few small business owners. On the whole this seems to be a rather small issue made huge by activists and media. I simply haven't seen any evidence of widespread denial of services to homosexuals or blacks or Jews or anyone else but when one incident pops up it suddenly becomes a media firestorm.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    A short while ago Gov. Mike Pence held a press conference to say that he asking for legislation by the end of the week to clarify the RFRA law he signed last week. Key in his statement:


    Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Ok then. If that is the "fix" he signs, we're good to go and all arguments to the contrary, that the law was intended to permit the denial of service to anyone under the color of religious freedom, were in error.
    I especially liked this part
    "This law does not give anyone the right to discriminate...This law does not give anyone the right to deny services," he said.
    I wonder what the **** he's been smoking, 'cause I want some.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    That would be perfectly legal with that type of business license. Then we could see if society in general would support these businesses or not. The fewer businesses with similar services/products in competition in an area would affect this as well but I'd be willing to bet people would go out of their way to avoid such businesses if they disagreed with what was posted. I know I would. I do it now regarding 'no guns allowed' signs even when not carrying.
    Why do we need government involved for that? Let businesses open and serve or not serve who they please, and let the local community decide to support them or not. No need for Big Brother to step in.
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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    I've got a question about all this.

    Let's say that there are 10 bakeries in the local area. Nine of the bakeries are pretty generic but one specializes in Christian themed goods. They primarily make cakes, cookies and cupcakes decorated with angels, crosses and other Christian themed adornment. They don't have a sign on their door or anything that says "Christians Only" but it's pretty obvious what their business model is. Now a gay couple decides to get married. They have been very active in the "gay rights" movement and want to make a statement so they intentionally choose this particular baker to provide a cake for their wedding because they are sure that there will be resistance. Sure enough, the Christian baker turns the job down based on their religious convictions.

    Now here's the question, in this scenario who is discriminating against whom?

    in the situation you described the only people practicing illegal discrimination and violating the rights of others would be the bakery. Theres no other answer based on legality and facts.
    now people could feel that they were dicks for choosing that bakery (but that also implies every christian or christian bakery would choose to break the law or think they cant provide service to people based on their religion, millions do not feel that way and it also implies that theres no chance of the couple themselves being Christians and wanting a christian themed wedding cake, there are christian churches doing gay marriages)

    but again to answer your question theres only one party partaking in illegal discrimination, thats the bakery
    even with law and facts not involved id be curious to see the logic that the couple practiced discrimination.
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