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Thread: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    THey arent, that's not what was written.

    It was about signage telling people where they could not bring their business (shop would be one example).

    How would people know they werent welcome there if there was no sign displayed informing them?
    Who cares? Why is that the businesses concern beyond people walking in all the time unwelcome?

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I know, I think so too. But...should they have the right to do so, just as the public has the right to act as they see fit?

    Like I said, it's a cool hypothetical to explore


    Yup. I doubt most stores would long survive, in most locations, if they openly and publically engaged in racial or gender discrimination.

    Now you might get away with "No Muslims" in many parts of the country... Muslims are not in good odor with the general public to a significant degree. Of course, spotting a Muslim is a lot harder than spotting a person of a certain race.

    "No gays" would get you boycotted out of biz in most major cities, and would probably cost you some business in most towns and counties regardless, but in many places you could do that and still stay afloat.


    What would you think about making it based on "real harm"? For instance, if someone can't get ANYONE within a reasonable radius of travel to bake their cake or serve them lunch or sell them stuff, then they could argue that the discrimination has actually harmed them.

    OTOH if all you have to do is cross the street to XYZ bakery and they say "Sure! We'll bake you a gay cake!" (lol) then you haven't REALLY suffered much have you?

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Who cares? Why is that the businesses concern beyond people walking in all the time unwelcome?
    So you believe it's better to deal with people inside the business, confronting them, telling them you wont serve them, telling them to leave instead? Seems like that is *clearly* associating with people that you feel you have the right to avoid associating with.

    Rather than just posting something so that they know not to patronize the place of business? Odd...since it's a common thing for businesses to do now....so they dont spend valuable time and energy on customers they wont serve and therefore derive no $ from.
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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    What would you think about making it based on "real harm"? For instance, if someone can't get ANYONE within a reasonable radius of travel to bake their cake or serve them lunch or sell them stuff, then they could argue that the discrimination has actually harmed them.
    Except that your condition is not made worse by people refusing to provide you service. The worst someone can do by not providing you service is not assist you in your problems. You really can't argue that they harmed anyone since all they did was not improve someones condition with service.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Sorry if I dont have full context, but while I completely support a non-govt run business posting religious verses, I dont see how you can dismiss the right of people not to patronize the business based on their feelings re: the verses. Or even criticize them for it.
    Sorry, I wasn't clear. Imagine an argument where someone says that because of those Bible verses, they don't feel comfortable there. Were it not for those verses they would eat at that restaurant so they are, on fact, suffering discrimination in a sense and they sue the business, based on that argument to remove those signs. Heck, what if those verses on the walls were the the ones that are generally understood to condemn homosexuality. Which side would you come down on?

    Imagine that, though, just opting to take your business somewhere else. That's crazy talk.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Yup. I doubt most stores would long survive, in most locations, if they openly and publically engaged in racial or gender discrimination.

    Now you might get away with "No Muslims" in many parts of the country... Muslims are not in good odor with the general public to a significant degree. Of course, spotting a Muslim is a lot harder than spotting a person of a certain race.

    "No gays" would get you boycotted out of biz in most major cities, and would probably cost you some business in most towns and counties regardless, but in many places you could do that and still stay afloat.


    What would you think about making it based on "real harm"? For instance, if someone can't get ANYONE within a reasonable radius of travel to bake their cake or serve them lunch or sell them stuff, then they could argue that the discrimination has actually harmed them.

    OTOH if all you have to do is cross the street to XYZ bakery and they say "Sure! We'll bake you a gay cake!" (lol) then you haven't REALLY suffered much have you?
    Are you discounting that if *I* or other people saw such signs, many of us, whether gay or Muslim or not, would still refuse to take our business to such places.

    I think basing it on 'real harm' is too much beauracracy and would be too objective. If people want to discriminate...let them. And see how they fare. I think it would be fascinating.
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    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    So you believe it's better to deal with people inside the business, confronting them, telling them you wont serve them, telling them to leave instead? Seems like that is *clearly* associating with people that you feel you have the right to avoid associating with.

    Rather than just posting something so that they know not to patronize the place of business? Odd...since it's a common thing for businesses to do now....so they dont spend valuable time and energy on customers they wont serve and therefore derive no $ from.
    I didn't say it was smart, but why shouldn't they have the right to not post who they serve? If they want to deal with people that they don't want to serve all the time that is their problem. I personally think it's stupid to not take the necessary steps to avoid the situation, but it's their business, not mine.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Sorry, I wasn't clear. Imagine an argument where someone says that because of those Bible verses, they don't feel comfortable there. Were it not for those verses they would eat at that restaurant so they are, on fact, suffering discrimination in a sense and they sue the business, based on that argument to remove those signs. Heck, what if those verses on the walls were the the ones that are generally understood to condemn homosexuality. Which side would you come down on?

    Imagine that, though, just opting to take your business somewhere else. That's crazy talk.
    I dont think that changes my response at all. They dont have to suffer at all....there is no right to not be offended.

    And again, it's a perfect example of letting the market, the people, decide. Do you see religious verses up in businesses? Yes. Do you see anti-Muslim or anti-gay or racist signage up in businesses? Not a whole lot...because that would harm business.
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    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Are you discounting that if *I* or other people saw such signs, many of us, whether gay or Muslim or not, would still refuse to take our business to such places.

    I think basing it on 'real harm' is too much beauracracy and would be too objective. If people want to discriminate...let them. And see how they fare. I think it would be fascinating.


    No, I'm taking into account the 'sympathizer boycott'. I think that it would vary based on demographics: local culture, and how cosmopolitan the local community is.


    You could have a "no gays" sign in my home town and probably still stay in business. Some people would boycott but some would actively support you. It probably would balance out near equally, or down only a little.

    In Atlanta (same region), you'd be out of business pretty quickly I'd think. Atlanta is far more cosmopolitan than my semi-rural county.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I didn't say it was smart, but why shouldn't they have the right to not post who they serve? If they want to deal with people that they don't want to serve all the time that is their problem. I personally think it's stupid to not take the necessary steps to avoid the situation, but it's their business, not mine.
    It's not fair to the customers, to come somewhere when they could go elsewhere, to go in and shop, etc, and then be told to leave. It wastes their time. I realize you dont care about that but you'd prefer there would be no business licenses or oversight at all. No health dept inspections, no safety inspections, so really, as usual your opinions are in the realm of fantasy. As you said, it's not smart and most would not do it. You like to make ridiculous statements with no real practicability like they are the libertarian High Ground and realistic and 'sound good. They are not.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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