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Thread: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with. Could you flesh out your thoughts in your own words?
    The law would or could provide discrimination based upon a vendors religious beliefs.
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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Most fundamentalist Christian denominations won't marry divorced people either.
    And yet, we were discussing 'campaigns' against such. Not just 'rules'. You were going to document such publicly organized campaigns where religious organizations and/or churches funded and carried out efforts to make such marriages for other sinners (like adulterers, fornicators, pedophiles, murderers, etc) illegal. So, still waiting.

    (As I said, the Catholic Church doesnt approve or perform them. That is different from trying to convince governments and the public that they should be illegal....You implied I was uninformed and that they did indeed exist. Please 'inform' me.)
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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    And yet, we were discussing 'campaigns' against such. Not just 'rules'. You were going to document such publicly organized campaigns where religious organizations and/or churches funded and carried out efforts to make such marriages for other sinners (like adulterers, fornicators, pedophiles, murderers, etc) illegal. So, still waiting.

    (As I said, the Catholic Church doesnt approve or perform them. That is different from trying to convince governments and the public that they should be illegal....You implied I was uninformed and that they did indeed exist. Please 'inform' me.)
    Your use of the word "campaign" is inappropriate. Churches have doctrine and that has been plain for centuries.
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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Looks like there will need to be court cases to draw the line.

    From the Indianapolis Star coverage:

    ". . . The compromise legislation specifies that the new religious freedom law cannot be used as a legal defense to discriminate against patrons based on their sexual orientation or gender identity.

    The proposal goes much further than a "preamble" that was proposed earlier in the week, and, if it stands, would be the first time any protections against discrimination have been extended to gays and lesbians in state law. But it doesn't go as far as establishing gays and lesbians as a protected class of citizens statewide or repealing the law outright, both things Republican leaders have said they could not support.

    INDIANAPOLIS STAR





    Specifically, the new language says the RFRA does not authorize a provider — including businesses or individuals — to refuse to offer or provide services, facilities, goods, employment, housing or public accommodation to any member of the public based on sexual orientation or gender identity, in addition to race, color, religion, ancestry, age, national origin, disability, sex or military service.
    The proposed language exempts churches or other nonprofit religious organizations — including affiliated schools — from the definition of "provider."

    What line do you see that needs to be drawn?
    Specifically, the new language says the RFRA does not authorize a provider — including businesses or individuals — to refuse to offer or provide services, facilities, goods, employment, housing or public accommodation to any member of the public based on sexual orientation or gender identity,
    Seems pretty clear.
    I don't attack my constituents. Bob is my constituent now.
    This is the important stuff. We canít get lost in discrimination. We canít get lost in B.S. We canít get lost tearing each other down. I want to make a point here that no matter what you look like, where you come from, how you worship, who you love, how you identify, and yeah, how you run, that if you have good public policy ideas, if you are well qualified for office, bring those ideas to the table, because this is your America, too. This is our commonwealth of Virginia, too.
    Danica Roem - The nation's first openly transgender person elected to serve in a U.S. state legislature.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    The law would or could provide discrimination based upon a vendors religious beliefs.
    Discrimination? How so?
    I don't attack my constituents. Bob is my constituent now.
    This is the important stuff. We canít get lost in discrimination. We canít get lost in B.S. We canít get lost tearing each other down. I want to make a point here that no matter what you look like, where you come from, how you worship, who you love, how you identify, and yeah, how you run, that if you have good public policy ideas, if you are well qualified for office, bring those ideas to the table, because this is your America, too. This is our commonwealth of Virginia, too.
    Danica Roem - The nation's first openly transgender person elected to serve in a U.S. state legislature.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Your use of the word "campaign" is inappropriate. Churches have doctrine and that has been plain for centuries.
    Then you shouldnt have used it in your claim that I was uninformed re: such things occuring in the past.

    And as a more general term, it actually does work...that's why I explained more detail, even in my last post....so you'd be able to support your claim and show me how uninformed I am.
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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    What line do you see that needs to be drawn?


    Seems pretty clear.
    We'll see. I suspect resistance will concentrate on those services whose provision would require the provider to participate in the conscience-offending activity. A wedding planner, for example, or a caterer asked to provide servers.
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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Instead of carving out protections for one group or another, all that needs to be done is have Congress apply the accommodation laws to a limited number of businesses like hospitals, restaurants, hotel/motels, gas stations etc. and exempt business owners. Those businesses who are in remote areas should be under accommodation laws to ensure everyone in that area could not be denied.

    According to the most remote towns in this country, the top ten have multiple listings for bakeries. Even the most remote, which is Barrow, AK.

    Top 10 Remote Small Towns

    I think that is all that needs to be said and makes the wheels on the gay agenda bus go flat.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Then you shouldnt have used it in your claim that I was uninformed re: such things occuring in the past.

    And as a more general term, it actually does work...that's why I explained more detail, even in my last post....so you'd be able to support your claim and show me how uninformed I am.
    If I understand you correctly, your claim has been that religious bodies opposed to gay marriage because they see it as sin have nonetheless sanctioned marriages by other groups whose behavior they also call sinful. You mentioned fornicators and adulterers (perhaps among others). Fornication (sex outside marriage) fails as an example because for the church marriage is a proper remedy for fornication. For the church gay marriage cannot be a similar remedy for gay fornication because gay sex inside a gay marriage remains a sin.

    Adultery is a better discussion. Generally those denominations most accepting of gay marriage are also those most likely to consecrate marriages between parties who have been divorced. The denominations most opposed to gay marriage are also those least accepting of marriages between divorced parties. Thus, all are generally being true to their convictions.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Adultery is a better discussion. Generally those denominations most accepting of gay marriage are also those most likely to consecrate marriages between parties who have been divorced. The denominations most opposed to gay marriage are also those least accepting of marriages between divorced parties. Thus, all are generally being true to their convictions.

    hmm really are you sure about that?

    Evangelicals are more likely to be divorced than the average American—even Americans who claim no religion.

    This unexpected claim comes from an unexpected source: three researchers at Baylor University.

    Jerry Park, Joshua Tom, and Brita Andercheck report that about 17 percent of white conservative Protestants and 16 percent of black Protestants are divorced, compared to 14 percent of all Americans.

    They point to the research of demographers Jennifer Glass and Philip Levchak, who argue that the evangelical encouragement to marry young and have more babies, along with discouragement to obtain higher education, is to blame. A strong evangelical presence increases divorce rates across the board, Glass reported.

    "The common conservative argument that strong religion leads to strong families does not hold up," stated Park, Tom, and Andercheck in their February 4 report for the Council of Contemporary Families.

    However, Bradford Wilcox, sociology professor at the University of Virginia and director of the National Marriage Project, disagrees.

    "The claim … that religion doesn't help marriage is bunk," he said. "In terms of people being integrated into a religious community—be it Protestant, Catholic, or Jewish—there is a strong correlation between the couple's integration and marital quality."

    Are Evangelicals Bad for Marriage? | Christianity Today

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