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Thread: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    As I pointed out to you (and to which you did not directly respond) in Post 354, the reason we allowed public accommodation laws to override Rights of Conscience objections in the Civil Rights Era was because the impact was to deny blacks access to entire industries. That is not the impact with homosexual marriages due to the breadth of options available to them and the lack of state enforcement of banning codes, which I pointed out to you, and which you then used to accuse me of "minimizing" by shifting that language to an entirely different portion of my post.



    True. And if the laws are wrong, then they should practice civil disobedience. There were white business owners in South Africa, for example, who bravely ignored Apartheid, just as there were businesses in the South who ignored Jim Crow. And if the laws violate the First Amendments and our Rights of Conscience, then we should stand and defend them.

    But your effect here is the exact same one that we used to justify overriding First Amendment rights during the Civil Rights Era - you are effectively banning Christians from entire industries.


    But I can't help but notice that you didn't answer the question. What does present - in your mind - justification for overriding people's Rights of Conscience? The "hurt and rejected" standard seemed to be pretty blatantly the one you were raising.
    My answer to your question is that it's obvious that people pick and choose selectively what they feel is objectionable (post 361)....in their own best interests, not conscience. And they do have a choice. If they feel a need so strongly that they must provide that service, then maybe they need to look at non-profit status, doing it for free, making it a 'club,' etc.

    And my position on this, in the post you responded to, was based on a moral position, not law. I think we are all disputing the fairness of the laws. And I reject your minimization of the effects on gays...you imply their needs and their equal treatment are not as important as blacks. I disagree and their overall treatment in our society is actually, IMO, what is really paramount here.
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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    My answer to your question is that it's obvious that people pick and choose selectively what they feel is objectionable....in their own best interests, not conscience
    If that is the case (and I do not think it is) then there would be no refusal to service gay weddings because that would represent a loss of profit.

    And they do have a choice.
    Sort of. They can either violate their consciences, or be punished by the state.

    Which is not a new situation for Christians, but rather an old one that Christians in American haven't had to worry much about lately.

    If they feel a need so strongly that they must provide that service, then maybe they need to look at non-profit status, doing it for free, making it a 'club,' etc.
    People have a right to make a living.

    And my position on this, in the post you responded to, was based on a moral position, not law. I think we are all disputing the fairness of the laws.
    So it's a "should" rather than a "must". All right. Legally what do you think the threshold should be at which point we forcibly override individual rights of conscience?

    And I reject your minimization of the effects on gays...you imply their needs and their equal treatment are not as important as blacks.
    That is not correct. I am saying that the impact of allowing individual businesses not to participate in gay weddings is not the equivalent of the impacts of Jim Crow on Blacks.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    If that is the case (and I do not think it is) then there would be no refusal to service gay weddings because that would represent a loss of profit.
    I said, in response to your using 'conscience' and the fact that this is mostly regarding religious objections, that it was selective. Right now, selecting against gays isnt economically painful....but may be in the future. As will publicity that a business will discriminate against them.

    Wanting to discriminate....bigotry against a particular class...does overcome $$$. Otherwise Jim Crow wouldnt have lasted so long and ultimately needed to be overturned by the govt. Bigotry, phobias, hate, offense, dislike....these are not synonymous with 'beliefs' and 'conscience.'
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post

    So it's a "should" rather than a "must". All right. Legally what do you think the threshold should be at which point we forcibly override individual rights of conscience?

    Morality is not a black and white thing. It's not simple (often) and it's not easy.

    For this topic, you comply with the state's laws and guidelines for businesses and you dont discriminate.

    That is 'more moral' IMO, the better and most equal treatment of people and best for society as well.

    No one is bound to open a business and no one is entitled to. There are other ways to make a living and I even offered options in the last post. We all make difficult decisions when we choose to follow our consciences.....sometimes the effects on us are negative. That is a choice we make.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I said, in response to your using 'conscience' and the fact that this is mostly regarding religious objections, that it was selective. Right now, selecting against gays isnt economically painful....but may be in the future. As will publicity that a business will discriminate against them.
    so be it. People have the right also to forego profit in order to serve God rather than money. Frankly, given the swiftness with which the activist left descends in wrath against any viable target who dares to dissent, I rather think that you are projecting into the future a reality today. We are currently in a situation where refusing to take part in gay weddings makes one a target.

    Wanting to discriminate....bigotry against a particular class...does overcome $$$ Otherwise Jim Crow wouldnt have lasted so long and ultimately needed to be overturned by the govt.
    Actually Jim Crow lasted as long as it did because it was enforced by the government. Economic pressure pushed many businesses to attempt to ignore or work around it's restrictions, and Jim Crow was first enshrined into law because public accommodations were serving blacks and whites, and the whites objected. Thomas Sowell has done some excellent work on this in his book Basic Economics if the topic interests you.

    Bigotry, phobias, hate, offense, dislike....these are not synonymous with 'beliefs' and 'conscience.'
    I agree. Where you go wrong is that you are simply conflating the latter for the former.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Morality is not a black and white thing. It's not simple (often) and it's not easy.

    For this topic, you comply with the state's laws and guidelines for businesses and you dont discriminate.

    That is 'more moral' IMO, the better and most equal treatment of people and best for society as well.

    No one is bound to open a business and no one is entitled to.... We all make difficult decisions when we choose to follow our consciences.....sometimes the effects on us are negative. That is a choice we make.
    All you are answering is "the law is the law", as a standard. But if your standard for what should be the law is the law itself, then why protest against the Indiana law?

    There are other ways to make a living and I even offered options in the last post.
    You offered "doing it for free".


    What do you do for a living, Gina?
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    This was/is my post and it contains a good deal of content relevant to this discussion:



    If you cannot form a reasonable response to it, then I suggest you stop bringing that fact to our attention, lol.
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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    At least by your inability to respond meaningfully you recognize the true nature of the problem, and the religious right's agenda.
    The solution worked out today is along the lines I outlined.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I guess it was tough on all the people that believed blacks were 'less' too, and not equal. And there was plenty of religious support, even scripture "interpretations," that enabled it.

    And you know what? I dont give crap about their 'consciences.' Wrong is wrong.

    The Bible was written by men...in some cases, apparently homophobic ones.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    And yet, such people were allowed to marry. And going back to the Western world and say, the 1700's, nah, they'd pretty much even stopped the stoning.

    As a matter of fact, lol, they were often *forced* to marry.
    You seem to be working out some issues not directly connected to our discussion.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    "A little bit disappointed" is grossly minimizing the experience of having someone say to one's face, "We don't __________________ for homosexuals (or transsexuals)." That causes way more than a little bit of disappointment. If it's related to a wedding, at the least, they've cast a pall on the planning and maybe the event. They've also planted seeds of doubt or fear about what the next stop will bring. That's a really cruddy thing to have to put up with over something LGBTs cannot change.
    The compromise reportedly agreed to by both sides today is along the lines I suggested. As best I can make out this early, a restaurant asked to provide food for a gay wedding probably cannot refuse, but a caterer cannot be compelled to provide servers and other support personnel who would actually participate.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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