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Thread: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    That you don't see that informing a person they are unfit to do business with because of a characteristic which they have no part in deciding (which does no harm the shopkeeper) is unkind/rude/cruel, is something I cannot wrap my head around. In person or on the phone.
    I can see how people would find it rude or cruel, particularly if you were rude or cruel in the delivery. But there are plenty of ways to handle that conversation without being rude or cruel.

    Nor is anyone saying "You are unfit to do business with". They are saying "we cannot in good faith take participate in your wedding ceremony."
    Worth noting, Democrats: President Trump will have a Pen and a Phone. #Precedent.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by beefheart View Post
    Indeed.

    Worth noting, Democrats: President Trump will have a Pen and a Phone. #Precedent.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I can see how people would find it rude or cruel, particularly if you were rude or cruel in the delivery. But there are plenty of ways to handle that conversation without being rude or cruel.

    Nor is anyone saying "You are unfit to do business with". They are saying "we cannot in good faith take participate in your wedding ceremony."
    You cannot pretty up the truth with that language. Good faith in this instance means the LGBT person they are denying service to is a sinner who will burn in hell for being the way they are and they won't have anything to do with them.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    That you don't see that informing a person they are unfit to do business with because of a characteristic which they have no part in deciding (which does no harm the shopkeeper) is unkind/rude/cruel, is something I cannot wrap my head around. In person or on the phone.
    The only thing that people choose in this mess is their religious dogma, and boy, that sure does mess people up when they choose the one that wants to hate and discriminate.
    "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    You cannot pretty up the truth with that language.
    You can certainly avoid being cruel or rude to people while refusing to take part in ceremonies that violate your faith.

    Good faith in this instance means the LGBT person they are denying service to is a sinner who will burn in hell for being the way they are and they won't have anything to do with them.
    It's not given to me to decide who's going to Hell or Heaven - and thank God it isn't. Furthermore, it is a central Christian teaching that we are all sinners in desperate need of a Savior, we all deserve Hell. If an LGBT person is a wicked sinner, well, yeah? That just makes them like everyone else?

    You are impugning opposition to your values to people who oppose your means. Taking my position no more requires seeking to be cruel to gays (the opposite of your motivation) thank taking your position requires hatred of Christianity (the opposite of my motivation). I don't think you hate Christians, nor do I think it is a goal of yours to trample on people's rights. It would be nice if you could extend to me that same basic presumption that no one here is deliberately trying to do evil to another to me and others.

    Good Faith in this instance simply means obedience to the New Testament. It is a restriction on me, not them. Nor does it mean by any stretch of the imagination that "it means you wont' have anything to do with them". On the contrary - my faith and my God demand that I love them, as best as I am able.
    Worth noting, Democrats: President Trump will have a Pen and a Phone. #Precedent.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by beefheart View Post
    The only thing that people choose in this mess is their religious dogma, and boy,
    that sure does mess people up when they choose the one that wants to hate and discriminate.
    It still boils down to the GOP civil war between the Elites versus the TEAts.
    The TEAts had a bone thrown their way due to gay marriage and it backfired.
    The GOP Elites like WAL-MART and TYSON changed the mind of the governor of Arkansas, not his son.

    All Congressmen and Senators are at home right now except the ones in Israel trying to undercut the Nuke talks--yet they are 'Silence is Golden'.
    Meanwhile, Jeb Bush has become the first to etch-a-sketch on his support for Pence---Romney 2.0 .
    Chemists Have Solutions .

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    You can certainly avoid being cruel or rude to people while refusing to take part in ceremonies that violate your faith.



    It's not given to me to decide who's going to Hell or Heaven - and thank God it isn't. Furthermore, it is a central Christian teaching that we are all sinners in desperate need of a Savior, we all deserve Hell. If an LGBT person is a wicked sinner, well, yeah? That just makes them like everyone else?

    You are impugning opposition to your values to people who oppose your means. Taking my position no more requires seeking to be cruel to gays (the opposite of your motivation) thank taking your position requires hatred of Christianity (the opposite of my motivation). I don't think you hate Christians, nor do I think it is a goal of yours to trample on people's rights. It would be nice if you could extend to me that same basic presumption that no one here is deliberately trying to do evil to another to me and others.

    Good Faith in this instance simply means obedience to the New Testament. It is a restriction on me, not them. Nor does it mean by any stretch of the imagination that "it means you wont' have anything to do with them". On the contrary - my faith and my God demand that I love them, as best as I am able.
    As I said:
    You cannot pretty up the truth with that language. Good faith in this instance means the LGBT person they are denying service to is a sinner who will burn in hell for being the way they are and they won't have anything to do with them.
    That statement was made in general, not against you. There is plenty of evidence on this board alone, that Christians who reject LGBT persons are doing so because they are sinners and then they add the part about hellfire. It's the kind of thing that LGBT individuals are likely to have heard. The Phelps are pretty widely distributing that sentiment as well. So when someone who is LGBT hears, even in the most polite language (if they are lucky) "We cannot in good faith provide you with service", that is what is behind it and what is communicated.

    Nobody enjoys being rejected, for any reason, but being rejected because of who you are, is hurtful and unkind. Nothing stops me from being kind to people patronizing my services, short of someone being a jerk to me and I have trouble being unkind then.

  9. #349
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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    1.)Freedom of conscience is a human right
    2.) and freedom of religion is protected under our Constitution.
    1.) no its not and you dramatically over rank conscience . . its basically meaningless when it comes to rights and laws
    2.) as rights, laws and many many court cases prove freedom of religion is not impacted by equal rights or anti-discrimination laws, it fact it protects them

    so both your arguments fail in the sense of legality and rights
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    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Again, tolerance means everyone is a little bit disappointed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    The bigotry is on both sides of this question. Tolerance means everyone has to be a little bit disappointed.
    thats not what tolerance means at all lol
    but it explains the illogical basis for the claims you have made
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