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Thread: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    We'll have to disagree. I think she has it just right.
    Presuming she's not trolling, then she's demonstrating an astonishing degree of myopia. The problem isn't about religious freedom (except insofar as religious freedom is cited as a pretext for behaving like complete assholes towards other people), but about creating a de facto second class. By barring the minority from patronizing as many businesses as the majority has access to(which includes schools and financial institutions, btw, not just bakeries and wedding photographers as this stream of stories would have us believe), you are creating a disadvantaged class. Of course the majority has no problem trolling everybody as you did by saying "just go to another business," because the majority is fully aware that as a majority they can in no way be meaningfully threatened by a minority.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    So you cannot support your claim that the challenges to the other things allowed in marriage that I mentioned (adultery, fornication, other sinners, non-believers) all happened in the past? Fine, just say so.

    I can repost AGAIN where you made the claim, including my post that included my initial statements, but it's looking like that would be an exercise in futility....since you evade again.
    Frankly, I don't understand your question. Until not so long ago adultery, fornication, etc. were crimes, sometimes punishable by death.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Presuming she's not trolling, then she's demonstrating an astonishing degree of myopia. The problem isn't about religious freedom (except insofar as religious freedom is cited as a pretext for behaving like complete assholes towards other people), but about creating a de facto second class. By barring the minority from patronizing as many businesses as the majority has access to(which includes schools and financial institutions, btw, not just bakeries and wedding photographers as this stream of stories would have us believe), you are creating a disadvantaged class. Of course the majority has no problem trolling everybody as you did by saying "just go to another business," because the majority is fully aware that as a majority they can in no way be meaningfully threatened by a minority.
    Tolerance means people of opposed convictions all have to be a little bit disappointed.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    It was my response to your opinion that the delays and discomfort of 'adjustment' are reasonable.






    Obviously, I dont feel that it is (reasonable).

    I am part of a generation that people will look back on much as they did those that accepted slavery.....ignorant at best, malicious at worst. I hope that this is overcome so that history will look back and see change for the better, and not ignorance. I do not wish to be included in the former judgements.

    And so, no, I dont feel it's reasonable. You dont agree, I understand. No response needed if you have none.
    In this matter the most rapid and positive cultural change in human history has been achieved.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    SSM is secure, and the extraordinarily rapid cultural evolution to achieve that is experienced by religious conservatives as an assault on their consciences.
    I have seen ZERO conservatives...or anyone else....explain how they have been 'assaulted' in any way by SSM. Not one could explain how it affected their marriage, their practicing their religion, or affected tenets of the institution of marriage (love, committment, raising a family, sacrifice, compromise, etc) period.

    If they *choose* to be insulted or offended, that has nothing to do with religion....apparently they are not offended so terribly by adulterers remarrying...and those people *actually did harm to others.*
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    I've got a question about all this.

    Let's say that there are 10 bakeries in the local area. Nine of the bakeries are pretty generic but one specializes in Christian themed goods. They primarily make cakes, cookies and cupcakes decorated with angels, crosses and other Christian themed adornment. They don't have a sign on their door or anything that says "Christians Only" but it's pretty obvious what their business model is. Now a gay couple decides to get married. They have been very active in the "gay rights" movement and want to make a statement so they intentionally choose this particular baker to provide a cake for their wedding because they are sure that there will be resistance. Sure enough, the Christian baker turns the job down based on their religious convictions.

    Now here's the question, in this scenario who is discriminating against whom?
    Now here's the answer to this contrived scenario: the baker is discriminating.

    Here is the thing about religious convictions; they don't give you the right to discriminate against other people just because those people might do something that is not approved by your religion. No one is saying that, in spite of your religious convictions, you have to become gay. What they are saying is that, if you open a store to serve the public, then you need to serve the public.

    It is very telling in this whole thing that these Christians aren't advocating for the right to refuse service to anyone who has committed a sin. What they are advocating is that they have the right to refuse service to one particular group of sinners. That is what the rest of us would call discrimination, because it sure as hell isn't religious freedom.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I have seen ZERO conservatives...or anyone else....explain how they have been 'assaulted' in any way by SSM. Not one could explain how it affected their marriage, their practicing their religion, or affected tenets of the institution of marriage (love, committment, raising a family, sacrifice, compromise, etc) period.

    If they *choose* to be insulted or offended, that has nothing to do with religion....apparently they are not offended so terribly by adulterers remarrying...and those people *actually did harm to others.*
    In most cases you are likely correct, but not in all.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Tolerance means people of opposed convictions all have to be a little bit disappointed.
    At least by your inability to respond meaningfully you recognize the true nature of the problem, and the religious right's agenda.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Fidelity to their consciences will cost them money.
    I guess it was tough on all the people that believed blacks were 'less' too, and not equal. And there was plenty of religious support, even scripture "interpretations," that enabled it.

    And you know what? I dont give crap about their 'consciences.' Wrong is wrong.

    The Bible was written by men...in some cases, apparently homophobic ones.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Frankly, I don't understand your question. Until not so long ago adultery, fornication, etc. were crimes, sometimes punishable by death.
    And yet, such people were allowed to marry. And going back to the Western world and say, the 1700's, nah, they'd pretty much even stopped the stoning.

    As a matter of fact, lol, they were often *forced* to marry.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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