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Thread: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Well....you would be wrong. Sorry. It may have been the intent of the customer to cause discord...but THAT isn't discrimination.
    I doubt that you and I would agree on what day of the week it is, much less an issue like this.

    If you pick someone out of a crowd based on a single characteristic with the sole intent of causing them harm then I'd say that's pretty much the textbook definition of discrimination.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    That becomes a little more difficult. However, while they would still be required to provide the cake, it is likely that the current law would not require them to write something on the cake that they do not want to, even if they offer to "put your message on a cake". There are similar cases where someone didn't want to print profanity, etc that were found to not violate the law. I imagine that if the Christian Baker didn't want to write "Happy Gay Marriage" that would be ok. They just can't refuse to provide the cake.
    With the current law, they would have a potential defense for refusing the work, but could still be held liable for discrimination against me, your hypothetical gay activist looking to pick a fight. And in Indiana, they would also have a potential defense against a civil suit on the same test.

    In my opinion, that was the point of the law, and not to codify outright ad-hoc discrimination.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Gee, wouldn't it be nice if every jurisdiction passed a law that said if you want to open a business that sells to the public you must sell to each and every person who enters your business provided they are polite, decent, exhibit proper hygiene, are not disruptive, and have a means of paying for the goods and/or services they wish to purchase. Otherwise, consider another profession or line of work.
    That doesn't work either. If someone comes into my office and tells me that they want to pay me $30k to do their tax return but their income is from heroin trafficking I'm still going to ask them to leave even though it would be perfectly legal for me to do the return.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    How many cases should there have to be before action takes place? Because it seems just a few people encounter discrimination, we should just ignore it? It must be widespread first? So those folks should just keep quiet and suck it up?
    There isn't much discrimination anymore, but the reason for that is most of it was made illegal and business has adapted to that - it's become a marketplace norm. For the vast majority of the population rules protect sexual orientation in addition to race, religion, etc. The point is the laws reflect our beliefs as a community and our expectations and they have worked. It would be IMO a huge mistake to assume because the laws have worked that we can repeal those laws. If we accept discrimination as legal, we are (as I see it) sending a community signal that it's OK. That's a step in the wrong direction.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Samhain View Post
    With the current law, they would have a potential defense for refusing the work, but could still be held liable for discrimination against me, your hypothetical gay activist looking to pick a fight. And in Indiana, they would also have a potential defense against a civil suit on the same test.

    In my opinion, that was the point of the law, and not to codify outright ad-hoc discrimination.
    I don't think so. Current laws have sided with businesses of this limited issue. I don't think that the law requires any specific writing as long as they provide the public. There are situations where a printer has refused to print flyers containing profanity and swastikas and the like. In other words, I don't think a gay couple could force the "Christian" or "Muslim" baker to put two men on a cake or draw a gay symbol. But if they want to buy a cake that they offer to the public, the baker cannot turn them away just because the baker thinks they are "icky".

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    98901
    Quote Originally Posted by ksu_aviator View Post
    Religion is not just in church. Religion is an all day, every day kind of thing. The practice of religion does not end, not ever.
    You are speaking of your own morality, not the practice of religion and worship.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    No. Face it, it was a poor analogy. Try harder to come up with something more on point. There are FCC laws that regulate the airwaves in the public interest. I'm happy to respond to an appropriate analogy. Put some thought into it and then get back to me.
    No, the analogy is fine.
    You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    I don't think so. Current laws have sided with businesses of this limited issue. I don't think that the law requires any specific writing as long as they provide the public. There are situations where a printer has refused to print flyers containing profanity and swastikas and the like. In other words, I don't think a gay couple could force the "Christian" or "Muslim" baker to put two men on a cake or draw a gay symbol. But if they want to buy a cake that they offer to the public, the baker cannot turn them away just because the baker thinks they are "icky".
    RFRA applies to more situations than what we are talking about, and RFRA wouldn't protect a business from discriminating due to "icky".

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    I doubt that you and I would agree on what day of the week it is, much less an issue like this.

    If you pick someone out of a crowd based on a single characteristic with the sole intent of causing them harm then I'd say that's pretty much the textbook definition of discrimination.
    Its Tuesday...and if you said it was any other day, you would be wrong as well.

    What you right MAY not be the right thing to do, but it is not discrimination. Look....if someone I knew where having a gay wedding and they purposefully sought out a florist or a baker or a wedding hall that had strong religious beliefs against gay marriage I would say that they are wrong. Certainly the bigoted business is wrong...but as a human being, where there are other alternatives I would say choose the other alternatives and let the bigots go about their business....their loss....someone elses gain. I wouldn't want to give the bigots my business regardless. But if they choose to do so, under the laws of our land, they are entitled to do so and the business cannot discriminate against them and turn them away. That is what is great about America.
    I wouldn't ever want to eat in a restaurant that wouldn't allow blacks to eat at their counter, but if a black person wants to give them his/her business then they should have the right to do so and the bigot shouldn't be allowed to turn them away just because they don't like their skin color.

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    Re: Gov. Mike Pence: Change RFRA law to make it clear discrimination won't be allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    I don't think so. Current laws have sided with businesses of this limited issue. I don't think that the law requires any specific writing as long as they provide the public. There are situations where a printer has refused to print flyers containing profanity and swastikas and the like. In other words, I don't think a gay couple could force the "Christian" or "Muslim" baker to put two men on a cake or draw a gay symbol. But if they want to buy a cake that they offer to the public, the baker cannot turn them away just because the baker thinks they are "icky".
    So does that mean all the baker has to do is make every cake custom? It would seem to me that if every cake was custom then people like yourself couldn't use the "but it's in the book" argument.

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