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You saw the reasons why, right? How can I possibly challenge the best poster on this entire website?
Good point!!
You saw the reasons why, right? How can I possibly challenge the best poster on this entire website?
So being told off for bigotry is the same as being denied basic services and the state government going out of its way to target you for discrimination, got it!
As opposed to some who know that it takes all of five minutes for a critic of libertarians and the market to pull out an old chestnut - failing to understand that the right to do something does not mean it is the right thing to do.
Need I explain it to you, or were you just doing a drive-by snarl?
That was a long ass post to just say I have a right to force you to trade with me.
libertarian is a joke because it can never grasp that "liberty" for one group actually only creates oppression of another, all while proving no expansion of liberty whatsoever on the part of the first group, because they were never made to sacrifice anything to begin with. Oh boo hoo, you're a landlord who can't evict someone over something they are born with and that makes no difference, oh god no!
This issue perfectly exposes the hypocrisy and uselessness of that entire mindset. I see clearly now that libertarians are just republicans in denial
See, as Phys says, it's not about you. It's not about "forcing" you. It's about protecting minorities from being ostracized from society. If you really can't view any political questions in terms of anything but your own gain, then you have nothing useful to contribute and no one should listen to you.
No one can ostracize someone from society.
Please define public accomodation. Is a grocery store a public accomodation? How about a clothing store? A hardware store? A hair dresser?
Not in a 1 on 1 interaction, but that's not what we're talking about. When you reduce discrimination to a single interpersonal interaction, you miss why it matters.
Whatever dude..........play your games elsewhere.
That has nothing to do with your choices. Nothing. This is what you (plural) choose not to understand. And furthermore, something else you (plural) choose not to understand is this:
THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU.
Nice soapboxing, but you forgot to mention that its about apple pie, coca-cola, and the ten commandments.Nor is it really even about the businesses that are already starting to discriminate.
This is about LGBTs who face discrimination, bullying, hatred, and disenfranchisement from hateful people who are given the power to hate.
This is about people who suffer a much higher rate of suicide because of this.
This is about people who are legally forbidden from expressing their love the same way that straight couples are allowed to.
You think this is about you? And what rights YOU have? That is the living definition of narcissism. You choose to believe that the imaginary oppression you might face at not having power over people whose behavior you don't like is more important than the real oppression that LGBTs face every day of their lives from ***holes who choose not to follow basic, common-sense standards of decent human behavior.
Of course you do...you just have to find the assholes.But guess what. This is 2015. And the same Constitution that you think gives businesses the right to discriminate, gives LGBTs and their allies the right to LOUDLY tell the ***holes to go to hell. And that is exactly what we intend to do.
So being told off for bigotry is the same as being denied basic services and the state government going out of its way to target you for discrimination, got it!
libertarian is a joke because it can never grasp that "liberty" for one group actually only creates oppression of another, all while proving no expansion of liberty whatsoever on the part of the first group, because they were never made to sacrifice anything to begin with. Oh boo hoo, you're a landlord who can't evict someone over something they are born with and that makes no difference, oh god no!
Actually it perfectly proves that there are some mindsets that are so underdeveloped that they are little more than "me hate" jeremiads against libertarians and republicans.This issue perfectly exposes the hypocrisy and uselessness of that entire mindset. I see clearly now that libertarians are just republicans in denial
You suffer from an impoverished imagination, as well as offering us an unusually lame straw man. To wit, I answered an inquiry by stating: "I have never allowed myself to be in a position to be persecuted. Like any potential PC victim, I never state my actual views on certain issues around gays (most of whom are intolerant)."
Why? Because to do so (especially when I was employed) would have resulted in a variety of unpleasant experiences, including, but not limited to, destroyed friendships and destroyed working relationships (which might have resulted in unemployment). And, as I stated, I don't even do so with the few gays I know well.
But like Phys251 penchant for loaded questions, you ask (infer) about a comparison (claim) that I never made - the only one comparing my life to your belief in a (imaginary) denial of basic services to gays and "out of your way targeting" of gays by state governments is YOU. Nice try, but a tad too transparent.
Now real discrimination is the era of Jim Crow, segregation, and thousands of lynchings. It is when a black man was not permitted to enroll in a public college, who couldn't get a job that amounted to more than that of a bell hop or janitor, or when his church was burned and his housing relegated to unheated and kerosene lit shacks. Real discrimination was when a black dancer or singer at a white club was not permitted to sit at a table, and who had to eat in the Kitchen during his/her breaks. Real discrimination was when no hotel in a City accepted black lodgers, which required them to sleep on tour buses or lodge with black families. THAT my friend, is REAL discrimination.
Today LGBT face next to nothing, other than State acknowledgement of "marriage" (soon to be ended in the remaining states). They make more money than hetrosexuals, they work in every industry at every level (including CEOs), they are not (and never have been) excluded in any housing, hotels, restaurants, state schools, or relegated to the work of bell hops and janitors. Even the worst era, the raiding of gay bath-houses and being arrested for solicitation in public parks is NOTHING compared to what blacks went through.
And today, even that is history. Seriously, who ever heard of even a smattering of rental discrimination or 'over-pricing' to gays? Who has ever heard of restaurants routinely (or even occasionally) refusing to serve a gay?
Actually I think its about the insecurity and imaginary oppression that LGBTs gin themselves into believing. Its about the narcissism of gays who are so insecure about their own identity that they crave recognition and need to declare their "pride". It's about the lack of a gay equivalent to whites only Woolworth counters, and the drive to find someone, somewhere, in a nation of 310,000,000 who can prove their "oppression"... a small baker in Oregon or a lone Photographer in New Mexico to pillory.
Of course you do...you just have to find the assholes.
Now real discrimination is the era of Jim Crow, segregation, and thousands of lynchings. It is when a black man was not permitted to enroll in a public college, who couldn't get a job that amounted to more than that of a bell hop or janitor, or when his church was burned and his housing relegated to unheated and kerosene lit shacks. Real discrimination was when a black dancer or singer at a white club was not permitted to sit at a table, and who had to eat in the Kitchen during his/her breaks. Real discrimination was when no hotel in a City accepted black lodgers, which required them to sleep on tour buses or lodge with black families. THAT my friend, is REAL discrimination.
Today LGBT face next to nothing, other than State acknowledgement of "marriage" (soon to be ended in the remaining states). They make more money than hetrosexuals, they work in every industry at every level (including CEOs), they are not (and never have been) excluded in any housing, hotels, restaurants, state schools, or relegated to the work of bell hops and janitors. Even the worst era, the raiding of gay bath-houses and being arrested for solicitation in public parks is NOTHING compared to what blacks went through.
. Allow the law, but include a corollary that states that the business in question should publicly announce what group that are choosing to not serve .
narcissistic rant
This idea is pretty good.
However, I doubt too many businesses would be in favor of this plan.
The threat of organized boycotts would be too great.
The bad publicity might hurt business.
I think that some people's "deeply held" beliefs are trumped by the almighty dollar.
Though I agree with you, I would see that as cowardly.
if the business owner is choosing to not take payment from one group of people, why not publicize it so that it is known... or are their beliefs not strong enough to stand up to that scrutiny?
They are already putting their beliefs ahead of the almighty dollar.
Didn't read the whole thread, but I have a solution. Allow the law, but include a corollary that states that the business in question should publicly announce what group that are choosing to not serve... that way those who do not want to associate with them will know that this is a "safe zone" and members of that group will avoid that place of business altogether... and anyone else who has issue with the situation.
You don't know what you're talking about and you obviously have no idea what we went through. You're right, it was nothing compared to what blacks went through; it was worse in a lot of ways. Being relegated to the work of bell hops and janitors is nothing in comparison to the State regarding being gay as tantamount to treason and forcibly institutionalizing you. If you think LGBT people never experienced those things then you have a lot of learning to do.
Pence and other supporters of the law contend discrimination claims are overblown and insist it will keep the government from compelling people to provide services they find objectionable on religious grounds. They also maintain that courts haven't allowed discrimination under similar laws covering the federal government and 19 other states.
But state Rep. Ed DeLaney, an Indianapolis Democrat, said Indiana's law goes further than those laws and opens the door to discrimination. "This law does not openly allow discrimination, no, but what it does is create a road map, a path to discrimination," he told the crowd, which stretched across the south steps and lawn of the Statehouse. "Indiana's version of this law is not the same as that in other states. It adds all kinds of new stuff and it moves us further down the road to discrimination."
Zach Adamson, a Democrat on Indianapolis' City-County Council, said to cheers that the law has nothing to do with religious freedom but everything to do with discrimination. "This isn't 1950 Alabama; it's 2015 Indiana," he told the crowd, adding that the law has brought embarrassment on the state.
On Saturday, the founder of Angie's List said the consumer review service is suspending its plans for a $40 million expansion in Indianapolis because of Indiana's new religious objections law.