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Thread: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post


    (Apologies for the incredibly stupid title of this video. But everything in it applies here.)


    Folks like you obviously don't get that all have inalienable rights. But along with that comes religious freedom and government does not have the right to force another against his moral conscience yet we see people attempting to quite often. And stooping to demeaning and disgracing the true suffrage of a race of people for equality and comparing that to denial of service over a wedding cake. Well it's quite .....disgusting. But here we are!

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post


    Can I get a witness?
    Where in the bible does it say whites can lynch blacks or that being black is somehow a sin?
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Religious people are discriminated against. Fat people are discriminated against. Smokers are discriminated against. Some discriminate against country western singers. Some discriminate against those who gamble and partake in alcohol. Others discriminate against Southern folks and others against Northern folks. There are laws that protect gays from discrimination against their inalienable rights just like any other citizen. Gays have not been denied the use of a water fountain. Gays have never been sold as merchandise to the highest bidder because of their gayness. Gays have never been denied a seat at a lunch counter or restaurant because of their gayness. But black folks were and it is outrageous there are those who will use the suffering of race inequality as even beginning to match what the lgbt community claims in discrimination acts. Denying someone a wedding cake because of religious convictions doesn't even belong on the same page of those who were beaten and treated like second class citizens because of their color. Shameful.

    Now long before LGBT, there was something called freedom of religion guaranteeing every individual their right to religious expression and moral conscience. Some folks find gay marriage a sin yet they have just as much right in the public square as anyone else and have the right to conduct their life in commerce without persecution for their beliefs.
    They might not have ever been denied a seat at a lunch counter, but they are prohibited from jobs, fired from other jobs, until the SC said HELL NO! no were subject to arrest for consensual sexual acts, making their intimate relationships a CRIME, etc. In the last couple of decades, a lot of those problems have greatly diminished, and in some areas aren't really problems at all, but that's only because of decades of work by people to enforce their rights and to change public opinion.

    And I think a lot of the misunderstanding, if that's the right word, is most people just have no idea what gay people went through in this country for almost its entire existence. I happen to have a decent understanding because my brother is gay, is in his 50s, and came out well before public opinion has effectively flipped on the subject, and I know what he experienced, and why he moved from Tennessee to California. Point is while it is true that they weren't systematically discriminated against to the same extent as blacks, but that's an irrelevant observation. It's like concluding that unless Jews or some other group are suffering as much as Jews did in Nazi Germany, then we need not worry because the Jews in Germany had it worse.

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    Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    I see many libertarians continue their long-standing tradition of being best friends to bigots looking for an excuse to close groups of people out of civil society.
    "We all of us know down here that politics is a tough game. And I don't think there's any point in being Irish if you don't know that the world is going to break your heart eventually."-Daniel Patrick Moynihan, December 5, 1963

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    They might not have ever been denied a seat at a lunch counter, but they are prohibited from jobs, fired from other jobs, until the SC said HELL NO! no were subject to arrest for consensual sexual acts, making their intimate relationships a CRIME, etc. In the last couple of decades, a lot of those problems have greatly diminished, and in some areas aren't really problems at all, but that's only because of decades of work by people to enforce their rights and to change public opinion.

    And I think a lot of the misunderstanding, if that's the right word, is most people just have no idea what gay people went through in this country for almost its entire existence. I happen to have a decent understanding because my brother is gay, is in his 50s, and came out well before public opinion has effectively flipped on the subject, and I know what he experienced, and why he moved from Tennessee to California. Point is while it is true that they weren't systematically discriminated against to the same extent as blacks, but that's an irrelevant observation. It's like concluding that unless Jews or some other group are suffering as much as Jews did in Nazi Germany, then we need not worry because the Jews in Germany had it worse.
    We have laws in place that do not tolerate discrimination over sexual orientation. If someone finds they are being discriminated against they have the right to pursue it in the courts. Did blacks have that right when they were looking for equality? NO But it doesn't stop some from trying to use what a race of people truly suffered for a century to use their suffering as equal to them when it is shameful to even make the comparison.

    Edit- until the last decade gay relations were truly seen as "against nature" in our society. I would never tolerate having a gay person mistreated and denied basic rights all should be entitled. But I also don't see it right to force those to go against their moral conscience just to make a living. There should be enough tolerance for all.
    Last edited by vesper; 03-27-15 at 05:09 PM.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Where in the bible does it say whites can lynch blacks or that being black is somehow a sin?
    I couldn't find one particular speech right off, but it was common for supporters of slavery to use religion to justify it. Here's part of the Texas statement in support of abolition:
    The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States

    We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

    That in this free government *all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights* [emphasis in the original]; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I couldn't find one particular speech right off, but it was common for supporters of slavery to use religion to justify it. Here's part of the Texas statement in support of abolition:
    The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States
    So in otherwords there is nothing in the bible supporting the lynching of black people or that being another race is a sin.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Over twenty million in manpower and funding, yes. What a lot of people who cite the "black people passed prop 8!" trope don't understand is that when you take the age and religion factors away then, well, there just really isn't much motivation left for opposing same sex marriage.

    Mormon church reports spending $180,000 on Proposition 8 | L.A. NOW | Los Angeles Times





    And then just to further drive the point home...





    So if you're old and religious, you're probably voting for prop 8, not bad money is on you voting for prop 8. Add "conservative" into it and forget about it.

    http://abcnews.go.com/images/Polling...ayMarriage.pdf

    Analysis of California Proposition 8 Exit Poll Data
    $180,000 in a statewide vote in California is inconsequential decimal dust.
    The point about black voters for Prop 8 is not that they were demographically different from others who voted as they did, but that only on this issue did they vote with old, white, conservative church-goers.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    nope im full aware of both those case and the FACTS and REALITY of them. Not the dishonest conspiracy theory versions, the facts of them. in fact both those cases support my statements. SO again in fact I dont know one christian in real life affected NEGATIVELY by equal rights and nondiscrimination laws, they protect us. Based on Christianity ZERO Christians are affected.
    facts win again
    Then what do you cal it if Christians are assessed fines and find themselves locked in legal battles over being allowed to decline certain clients?

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    everyone i know around here is outraged, so don't be so quick to paint the whole state with a broad brush. stickers are going up everywhere making it clear that everyone is welcome. Pence is the worst governor Indiana has had in my lifetime. unfortunately a majority voted for these dip****s or didn't vote; i think turnout was like twenty five percent. hopefully, more people will get off of their asses in 2016 and vote these ****ers out for ruining Indiana's reputation.

    boycotts will do more harm than good, too. major employers and small businesses lobbied against this stupid bill, but they were ignored. they don't deserve to be boycotted, and people who don't even support this don't deserve to lose their jobs because of it.

    what can you do that will help? write, email and call those ****ers at the statehouse until the ****ing phone lines melt. and don't stop when the media stops covering it. keep it up. eventually, they'll have to cave.
    The Indiana RFRA is patterned after the federal RFRA of 1993, originally put forward by (then) Representative Chuck Schumer of New York. Many states have similar laws. And you are wrong about turnout in Pence's election.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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