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Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

Oh don't get me wrong. Our State Board of Ed wields much power over the content of our kids' schooling. A useless group of morons if I ever saw one. It's the adults who they don't try to over control here. Thank goodness.

Seriously, check it out. Texas has more influence over contents of texts books across the nation than many state's own boards. It's in the headlines all the time.
 
The people claimed it violated their religious beliefs to serve same sex couples at a wedding, just as there are those in the 70s who claimed it violated their religious beliefs to serve interracial couples. People use religious beliefs as an excuse for not accepting responsibility for their own, personal beliefs.

Oh. Well, the only people I know who oppose gay marriage and gay coupling are my deeply religious friends/acquaintances . They are most certainly opposed for religious reasons. My mother in law is a holy rolling Catholic, and I've seen some of her literature that says homosexuality is a sin.
 
All states have influence on what children learn. It's an intended consequence of government being involved in education.

Sure beats creationists having influence.
 
Seriously, check it out. Texas has more influence over contents of texts books across the nation than many state's own boards. It's in the headlines all the time.

I've seen the headlines from TX. That's why government doesn't belong in education.
 
Pence has been caught off guard by the vicious dishonesty of the law's critics.

LOL. "Vicious" dishonesty....

Well, try to appease bigots and this is the price. Can't say he wasn't warned, because he was and did it anyway. Now the legislature is hearing from businesses who warned them NOT to do it and this time it looks like they may listen.
 
Their "dishonest" critics believed the proponents of the bill. And they noticed that given the chance to clarify the law and make clear that it wouldn't allow for discrimination (as you claim) the legislature declined. Utah of all places did a fine job of coming to a compromise. Indiana gave everyone the finger. It's blowing up on them. :boohoo:

They were surprised by the vicious dishonesty of the attacks.
 
LOL. "Vicious" dishonesty....

Well, try to appease bigots and this is the price. Can't say he wasn't warned, because he was and did it anyway. Now the legislature is hearing from businesses who warned them NOT to do it and this time it looks like they may listen.

Yes, vicious dishonesty. The left has descended into the gutter on this one.
 
You see, conservatives and "Dutch style" social democrats can agree on issues. I am not an American social democrat ;) because I would think that would be closer to the position of the Socialist Party of the Netherlands (a party which I detest, they finance the poor by taking too much from the rich and the middle class, are too constricting when it comes to economics, I do not like nationalized industries, etc. etc. etc.).

I am a social liberal and a moderate on most other issues, sometimes even agreeing with conservatives.
I noticed. :)
 
Sure beats creationists having influence.

Not really. The state can shape the minds of children to push forward its goals that are far more dangerous than such drivel as creationism.
 
All states have influence on what children learn. It's an intended consequence of government being involved in education.


Some states have more influence than others. One day your kids will be forced to read the rewritten science and history books that the religious wacknuts in Texas Ed Agency want to force on all kids. They too get to will learn bunches of dishonest nonsense.

And Texas lovvvvvvvvvvvvesssssssssssss to OMIT true history.
 
Some states have more influence than others. One day your kids will be forced to read the rewritten science and history books that the religious wacknuts in Texas Ed Agency want to force on all kids. They too get to will learn bunches of dishonest nonsense.

And Texas lovvvvvvvvvvvvesssssssssssss to OMIT true history.

History class across the nation is about pushing the government approved narrative. I don't know why some states have more influence than others, but at the same time I don't care about it all that much. The problem is governments influence in education, not which states have more or less influence.
 
I guess we worry about different things, RM. I wouldn't lose my marbles because someone doesn't want to bake me a cake so I have to go to the guy down the road.

I'm not religious at all, but it doesn't bother me when others are. I just don't want to be forced to go to church or wear ashes on my head one day in February or read the Bible or pray with beads. To each his own.

I just don't believe this. I doubt very much that many people would actually simply be calm about accepting someone's refusal to serve them, especially for something that like sex or race or their religion/beliefs. Especially if you took the time to actually go to that place to begin with, having no idea that they would refuse to serve you simply because you were a part of some group of people that they didn't agree with, not because you were asking for something they felt was offensive or hateful.

Imagine driving on a road, and you need gas. The first place you come to says "can't give you gas, your car is blue or foreign". Okay, so you accept that reasoning even if it is stupid and your car takes the gas the person sells. You drive on a little, getting lower on gas as you go. There is another station. You pull over definitely worried now that you might run out of gas despite having filled up at the beginning of your drive. Now, it is you and your girlfriend (not romantic, just a friend) on the road. The woman at the counter misinterprets your hug as romantic and says she can't provide you with service because you are obviously a lesbian couple (each of you have a wedding band on your finger). You try to explain that you aren't but she doesn't want to hear it, saying you would lie to get her service. So you drive away hoping there is another gas station close. Right as you are getting desperate, light's been on, gas gage has been sitting on E, you see another station. You go to get gas, and the attendant stops you, saying he can't sell you gas because the sticker on the back of your car declares you are Catholic. He feels Catholics are wrongly interpreting the scriptures and worship the Pope rather than God/Jesus. Now what do you do? Simply say "well that is their rights" or recognize that all these businesses had different reasons for turning you away, reasons that didn't have anything to do with protecting their business, only their personal biases. And these things put you in danger. Would it be different if the one that refused due to the color or type of car you had was the last one, the one to leave you desperately sitting at E, unable to start your car, and having to call AAA or some other service to get you?
 

WRONG!

Here's reality according to the National Education Agency....

“The circus-like efforts of right-wing board members,” Haecker said, “to impose their own religious and political beliefs on the public school curriculum have been and still are a national embarrassment.”

The standards will guide textbook purchases and classroom instruction over the next decade — and maybe not just in Texas. National publishers usually cater to its demands because the school board is probably the most influential in the country. Texas buys 48 million textbooks every year. No other state, except California, wields that sort of market clout.

But California isn’t taking any chances. A bill recently introduced in the state legislature seeks to prevent Texas-approved changes from seeping into textbooks in the Golden State.

Even if their reach is limited to Texas, will the new standards capsize social studies classrooms across the Lone Star state? Probably not, says Kirk White, a middle school social studies teacher in Austin.

NEA - Will Texas Decide What's In Your Textbook?
 
I just don't believe this. I doubt very much that many people would actually simply be calm about accepting someone's refusal to serve them, especially for something that like sex or race or their religion/beliefs. Especially if you took the time to actually go to that place to begin with, having no idea that they would refuse to serve you simply because you were a part of some group of people that they didn't agree with, not because you were asking for something they felt was offensive or hateful.

Imagine driving on a road, and you need gas. The first place you come to says "can't give you gas, your car is blue or foreign". Okay, so you accept that reasoning even if it is stupid and your car takes the gas the person sells. You drive on a little, getting lower on gas as you go. There is another station. You pull over definitely worried now that you might run out of gas despite having filled up at the beginning of your drive. Now, it is you and your girlfriend (not romantic, just a friend) on the road. The woman at the counter misinterprets your hug as romantic and says she can't provide you with service because you are obviously a lesbian couple (each of you have a wedding band on your finger). You try to explain that you aren't but she doesn't want to hear it, saying you would lie to get her service. So you drive away hoping there is another gas station close. Right as you are getting desperate, light's been on, gas gage has been sitting on E, you see another station. You go to get gas, and the attendant stops you, saying he can't sell you gas because the sticker on the back of your car declares you are Catholic. He feels Catholics are wrongly interpreting the scriptures and worship the Pope rather than God/Jesus. Now what do you do? Simply say "well that is their rights" or recognize that all these businesses had different reasons for turning you away, reasons that didn't have anything to do with protecting their business, only their personal biases. And these things put you in danger. Would it be different if the one that refused due to the color or type of car you had was the last one, the one to leave you desperately sitting at E, unable to start your car, and having to call AAA or some other service to get you?

At what point did any of these businesses put anyone in danger?
 
Oh. Well, the only people I know who oppose gay marriage and gay coupling are my deeply religious friends/acquaintances . They are most certainly opposed for religious reasons. My mother in law is a holy rolling Catholic, and I've seen some of her literature that says homosexuality is a sin.

My mother is Catholic as well, as was my grandmother. Guess who taught me that there was nothing wrong with homosexuality and that they should be allowed to marry? My mother and grandmother. My grandmother is the most devout to her faith that I have seen, having said prayers 4 hours a day, 7 days a week for as long as I knew her. (You didn't interrupt my grandmother's prayers.) Just because people have "literature" claiming something is a sin or say "my religion says" doesn't mean it isn't still their personal beliefs that lead them to do something like refusing to sell a cake for a same sex wedding.
 
Now large corporations are part of the "left"? Definitions sure have changed for some people

Indiana and the Intolerant Left - David French, National Review

". . . While it’s hardly surprising to see legally ignorant sportswriters use the language of segregated lunch counters, it’s disturbing to see well-informed CEOs such as Apple’s Tim Cook conjuring up the specter of the Old South. Simply put, their concerns about systematic invidious discrimination are utter hogwash, and they either know it or should know it. Why? Because RFRAs aren’t new, the legal standard they protect is decades older than the RFRAs themselves, and these legal standards have not been used — nor can they be used — to create the dystopian future the Left claims to fear. After all, the current RFRA legal tests were the law of the land for all 50 states — constitutionally mandated — until the Supreme Court’s misguided decision in Employment Division v. Smith, where the Court allowed fear of drug use to overcome its constitutional good sense. And yet during the decades before Smith, non-discrimination statutes proliferated, and were successfully enforced to open public accommodations to people of all races, creeds, colors, and — yes — sexual orientations. . . . "
 
Yes, vicious dishonesty. The left has descended into the gutter on this one.

They're viciously dishonest for believing the proponents of the bill. Got it.

More seriously, this is from a story today, and is consistent with lots of other stories on the amendments rejected by lawmakers:

Lawmakers could also add language to prevent the law from being used to overturn local human rights ordinances in about a dozen Indiana cities that protect gays and lesbians from discrimination. But in recent weeks, Republicans have shot down Democratic proposals to do just that.

The viciously dishonest critics aren't stupid and so watched that happen. When given the chance to clarify the law to guarantee it wouldn't be a tool to overturn local ordinances, the GOP said HELL NO!!! Someone in this thread mentioned Texas attempting to use "religious freedom" legislation to overturn local ordinances dealing with civil rights for LGBT. Here's one story. Can you guarantee me that the Indiana RFRA cannot be used to overturn local ordinances?

And the bottom line is the backers of this legislation in Indiana and elsewhere aren't stupid. They're well funded, organized, headed by smart people playing a long game, and it would be a mistake to take their coordinated efforts lightly. Somehow your assurances don't mean a whole lot given the muscle and coordination on this particular issue by groups that are proudly and vocally against SSM and contemptuous of civil rights being extended to LGBT. They tell us their goals, and you expect people not to believe them. That would be a mistake.
 
I just don't believe this. I doubt very much that many people would actually simply be calm about accepting someone's refusal to serve them, especially for something that like sex or race or their religion/beliefs. Especially if you took the time to actually go to that place to begin with, having no idea that they would refuse to serve you simply because you were a part of some group of people that they didn't agree with, not because you were asking for something they felt was offensive or hateful.

Imagine driving on a road, and you need gas. The first place you come to says "can't give you gas, your car is blue or foreign". Okay, so you accept that reasoning even if it is stupid and your car takes the gas the person sells. You drive on a little, getting lower on gas as you go. There is another station. You pull over definitely worried now that you might run out of gas despite having filled up at the beginning of your drive. Now, it is you and your girlfriend (not romantic, just a friend) on the road. The woman at the counter misinterprets your hug as romantic and says she can't provide you with service because you are obviously a lesbian couple (each of you have a wedding band on your finger). You try to explain that you aren't but she doesn't want to hear it, saying you would lie to get her service. So you drive away hoping there is another gas station close. Right as you are getting desperate, light's been on, gas gage has been sitting on E, you see another station. You go to get gas, and the attendant stops you, saying he can't sell you gas because the sticker on the back of your car declares you are Catholic. He feels Catholics are wrongly interpreting the scriptures and worship the Pope rather than God/Jesus. Now what do you do? Simply say "well that is their rights" or recognize that all these businesses had different reasons for turning you away, reasons that didn't have anything to do with protecting their business, only their personal biases. And these things put you in danger. Would it be different if the one that refused due to the color or type of car you had was the last one, the one to leave you desperately sitting at E, unable to start your car, and having to call AAA or some other service to get you?

Oh, well I guess you don't believe it. I've been rejected by prospective employers, not every boy I ever liked liked me back, I've driven into gas stations and waited 10 minutes for nobody to come out to the pump, and so on. It's happened to other people as well. I don't think I'm the only person in the USA who hasn't gotten what I want exactly when I wanted it. I can also come up with extreme examples of anything and say the world is coming to an end because of it. I don't think there's any point to that. If you think we have a major problem where gas stations aren't going to sell their gas because they don't like you, that could make for an interesting game of "what if", but I don't play that real well. I can also imagine I'll hit the $300 million Powerball next week, but in the meantime I won't start spending the money.
 
That should never be a possible lawsuit. A baker does not make cake's with bacon on it and he should have the right to still retain artistic freedom to make specially designed cakes (like the bacon and the 2 kissing men).

Well, Peter, I won't set idle and say nothing while religious zealots attempt to control who I can and can't sue. If choose to sue against some religious interests. Too bad for them. I have the right of "freedom from religion" as much as they have "freedom of religion".

But lets not forego the reality here. Some religions are profoundly more conservative and actually oppressive. Knowing what I know about the Muslim religion, I'd say that it would be obvious to which bakery is operated by Muslims.

What's not so obvious is ultra conservative Christians who wear their religion on their business shirt sleeves. Hobby Lobby came out to the nation as being a more radical form of Christian affiliation. I say radical because not all Christian denominations subscribe to their beliefs.

When you look at all of the small mom and pop business across the country...who want to cry "religious of freedom". Then others have the right to cry "freedom from religion. I'll see'em in court if they want to play the religious card. The same for any size business as far as I'm concerned.
 
At what point did any of these businesses put anyone in danger?

Running out of gas can easily put people in danger, particularly if it happens while trying to find a station that will sell you gas. Plus, it costs the person more money due to the businesses refusing to sell them something those businesses agreed to sell.
 
My mother is Catholic as well, as was my grandmother. Guess who taught me that there was nothing wrong with homosexuality and that they should be allowed to marry? My mother and grandmother. My grandmother is the most devout to her faith that I have seen, having said prayers 4 hours a day, 7 days a week for as long as I knew her. (You didn't interrupt my grandmother's prayers.) Just because people have "literature" claiming something is a sin or say "my religion says" doesn't mean it isn't still their personal beliefs that lead them to do something like refusing to sell a cake for a same sex wedding.

Oh. Well I guess I lied because your mother is different than my mother in law.:shrug:
 
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