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Thread: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Public accomodations must serve everybody. There are exceptions but they do not include "because I didn't want to"
    Title 2 is pretty narrow, unless you are referring to a different law.
    All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Samhain View Post
    Title 2 is pretty narrow, unless you are referring to a different law.
    Yes, Title II is narrow but it's not the only law that regulates public accommodations. They have been regulated by common law for centuries. IIRC, these common law rules date back to the 17th century
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Yes, Title II is narrow but it's not the only law that regulates public accommodations. They have been regulated by common law for centuries. IIRC, these common law rules date back to the 17th century
    Common law always boggles me, since its not a direct codification and requires case research/interpretation. It is what it is.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) and that observation would be wrong . . there is a choice . . a choice not to go into business and think you are allowed to break the law. Just like you have a choice not to rape women or rob people.
    If you think laws against rape, and robbery and infringing on peoples rights are bullying then you must really not like the constitution and rights and the majority of laws lol
    2.) any counter suit would fail
    3.) correct I do because the facts make it that way, i cant go against fact, my honesty doesn't allow me.
    They in fact do have a choice on who to or who to not serve.

    lets see if i can further help educate you on this topic.

    simply question. a person walks in thier story, they want 15, 6 tier cakes by the evening, do they have choice to serve them?
    Assuming that the contract for services has to be voluntarily entered by both parties, it would seem reasonable that either party could refuse.
    Could be the seller's price is too high for the buyer, or the quality of the cakes not meeting expectations, or the seller doesn't have the capacity to fulfill the obligations of the contract, time, flour, staffing, etc.
    Disinformation campaign? The Russian collusion meme pushed by the 'news' media, behaving as a political propaganda organ, hell bent to destroy a legitimately elected president to implement his agenda per the votes of the same electorate. Reference The Big Lie Reference Goebbels

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Samhain View Post
    Common law always boggles me, since its not a direct codification and requires case research/interpretation. It is what it is.
    Yes, it is. If you want to read a bit about how common law applies to public accommodations, here's a link

    http://scholarship.law.marquette.edu...8&context=mulr

    You need not read the entire thing. The first 10 pages or so are interesting.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryChinaski View Post
    If Dave says that He was denied service from a clinic/doctor, then He was. His word is gold to Me. When I speak to him, I will get specifics. I want details as well.
    Of course.
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Shame on the State of Indiana, especially their bigoted Governor and legislature. You would think that in 2015 we would be beyond this type of hatred and bigotry. This simply shows that for all the progress that America has made, we are still a long ways away from being a country that treats everyone fairly and equally. The bigots will lose.....but the battle remains.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    LDS provided significant funding as I recall.
    Over twenty million in manpower and funding, yes. What a lot of people who cite the "black people passed prop 8!" trope don't understand is that when you take the age and religion factors away then, well, there just really isn't much motivation left for opposing same sex marriage.

    Mormon church reports spending $180,000 on Proposition 8 | L.A. NOW | Los Angeles Times

    Top officials with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints filed reports today indicating that they donated more than $180,000 in in-kind contributions to Proposition 8, the November ballot initiative that banned same-sex marriage in California.

    The contributions included tens of thousands of dollars for expenses such as airline tickets, hotel and restaurant bills and car-rental bills for top church officials such as L. Whitney Clayton, along with $96,849.31 worth of “compensated staff time” for church employees.

    The church said the expenditures took place between July 1 and the end of the year. The church’s involvement has been a major issue in the campaign and its aftermath. Individual Mormon families donated millions -- by some estimates more than $20 million -- of their own money to the campaign.
    Religion

    At its core, the institution of marriage formalizes certain associations between members of a society. Looking at the historical record, the associations themselves have varied over time as well as the number of members and combinations of their sexes. The data supports common wisdom, contains a few curious details and provides a basis for predicting the results of future votes concerning same-sex marriage. The exit poll question which most decisively indicates that an individual believes marriage is between one male and one female centers around religion:

    Religion % of respondents Yes on prop 8 No on prop 8
    Protestant (43%) 65% 35%
    Catholic (30%) 64% 36%
    Jewish (5%) N/A N/A
    Other (6%) N/A N/A
    None (16%) 10% 90%
    And then just to further drive the point home...
    Church Attendance % of respondents Yes on prop 8 No on prop 8
    Weekly (32%) 84% 16%
    Occasionally (44%) 46% 54%
    Never (21%) 17% 83%

    Age

    The exit poll data contains one more data point worth exploring.

    Vote by Age % of respondents Yes on prop 8 No on prop 8
    18-24 (11%) 36% 64%
    25-29 (9%) 41% 59%
    30-39 (17%) 52% 48%
    40-49 (22%) 59% 41%
    50-64 (26%) 51% 49%
    65 or Over (15%) 61% 39%
    So if you're old and religious, you're probably voting for prop 8, not bad money is on you voting for prop 8. Add "conservative" into it and forget about it.

    http://abcnews.go.com/images/Polling...ayMarriage.pdf

    http://www.madpickles.org/California_Proposition_8.html
    Last edited by Cardinal; 03-27-15 at 11:16 AM.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Over twenty million in manpower and funding, yes. What a lot of people who cite the "black people passed prop 8!" trope don't understand is that when you take the age and religion factors away then, well, there just really isn't much motivation left for opposing same sex marriage.

    Mormon church reports spending $180,000 on Proposition 8 | L.A. NOW | Los Angeles Times





    And then just to further drive the point home...





    So if you're old and religious and, you're probably voting for prop 8, not bad money is on you voting for prop 8. Add "conservative" into it and forget about it.
    I'm conservative, and I wouldn't have voted for it.

    Old people - of course, no surprise. Guess what? When we're old, we probably won't be thinking in sync with what our grandkids think, either.

    Religious people - the opposition from non-elderly to gay marriage seems to be coming from religious groups.

    58% of the blacks in California voted to oppose SSM. That is statistical history.

    Religion is usually the motivator to opposing SSM and gay lifestyles. That's even what this thread is all about. Mike Pence was explicit that this has to do with religion.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    No, public accommodations are required to serve everyone. The only exception is that service can refused for reasons that have "legitimate business reason" - (actually, there's a legal term for it, but I forget what it is)

    Also, there are exceptions for expressive organizations for which refusing service for political reasons is allowed in order to protect the free speech rights of the business owners (ie the right to not speak) if their performing the service would lead reasonable people to believe that they support or agree with the speech.

    The law is complicated, so there may be other exceptions but the general rule is that public accommodations must serve everybody and they may not refuse service on the basis of "I didn't want to". There must be a clear and articulable reason that is related to the business.
    No, this is not accurate at all.

    Have you ever noticed those signs stating: "We reserve the right to refuse service"? Those signs are affirming that the owner retains the right to refuse service for reasons not centered on a protected ground. For example:

    - Owner: You cant wear baggy pants here and other clothes that I deem to be street gang wear.
    - Potential customer (black male): But I have legitimate business here.
    - Owner: Then change clothes and come back.

    In short, "Black male wearing baggy pants" is no more a protected class than "white male wearing a rebel pride T-shirt". Both of us can be refused, and I have seen it happen for the baggy pants guys. likewise, a group of CSA afficionados decked out in CSA uniforms was told to leave a shopping mall in Lousiana.

    There are potential grey areas where the restriction are so numerous that they constitue de facto refusal on a protected ground:

    Owner 1: No baggy pants, no "jive talking", no discussions of subjects of black interest. Heck, no blacks unless they dress, act and talk like Doctor Benjamin Carter
    Owner 2: No rebel t shirts, no "red neck" talk, no discussions of subjects common to rural southeren white. Heck, no whites- unless they dress, act and talk like Nancy Pelosi
    Last edited by Cryptic; 03-27-15 at 11:28 AM.

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