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Thread: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

  1. #581
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    1.)I'd observe that the mere threat of fines from a government entity, especially such large ones, casts doubt on whether it is feasible to actually have a choice in this situation. That, and a case of government bullying might yet be made.
    2.)A counter suit from the Christian Bakers against the government entity that levied the fines perhaps?
    3.) Even Agent J seems to be of the position that there's a choice here as to whom to serve or whom not to serve.
    1.) and that observation would be wrong . . there is a choice . . a choice not to go into business and think you are allowed to break the law. Just like you have a choice not to rape women or rob people.
    If you think laws against rape, and robbery and infringing on peoples rights are bullying then you must really not like the constitution and rights and the majority of laws lol
    2.) any counter suit would fail
    3.) correct I do because the facts make it that way, i cant go against fact, my honesty doesn't allow me.
    They in fact do have a choice on who to or who to not serve.

    lets see if i can further help educate you on this topic.

    simply question. a person walks in thier story, they want 15, 6 tier cakes by the evening, do they have choice to serve them?
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    Hmm
    Protected class - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In a Ven diagram (remember those from high school) each of the above groups is a subset of the total population. The one group that doesn't seem to be represented would be White Males from birth to age 40.
    Everyone has a race, a gender and an age. Even White males under 40.

    None of those Civil Rights laws apply to any subset of the population. They protect everyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Samhain View Post
    But can you refuse service if you think they are ugly or smell funny?
    Depends.

    If their odor suggest a lack of hygiene, service can be refused for health reasons.

    Ugliness is not a legal basis to refuse service
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Everyone has a race, a gender and an age. Even White males under 40.

    None of those Civil Rights laws apply to any subset of the population. They protect everyone.
    ding ding ding ding
    100% correct, i thought this was common knowledge a person learned in like 6th grade social studies but i guess not. There's a lot of misinformation and propaganda out there.
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Depends.

    If their odor suggest a lack of hygiene, service can be refused for health reasons.

    Ugliness is not a legal basis to refuse service
    Since ugly is a subjective(so is fat and smelly), I would think you could legally refuse service since those are not protected classes.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) and that observation would be wrong . . there is a choice . . a choice not to go into business and think you are allowed to break the law. Just like you have a choice not to rape women or rob people.
    If you think laws against rape, and robbery and infringing on peoples rights are bullying then you must really not like the constitution and rights and the majority of laws lol
    2.) any counter suit would fail
    3.) correct I do because the facts make it that way, i cant go against fact, my honesty doesn't allow me.
    They in fact do have a choice on who to or who to not serve.

    lets see if i can further help educate you on this topic.

    simply question. a person walks in thier story, they want 15, 6 tier cakes by the evening, do they have choice to serve them?
    That of course is the goal, to force Christians (mostly) out of the marketplace unless they conform to the homosexual agenda. This is what passes for tolerance these days. Conform or be harmed

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    No, it is illegal to refuse service if the repulsion is based on a protected class alone.

    I am a white male. It is illegal to refuse me service because one finds white males repulsive (gender, race are protected classes). If I put on a big 'ole "Rebel Pride" T-shirt, it is legal to refuse me service if they find me repulsive. "white guy wearing a T-shirt advocating a certian socio political view" is simply not a protected class.

    I could make an argument that refuse to serve me in my Rebel Pride T-shirt constitutes discrimination against my ethnicity (white southerener), but I dont think the argument would work. I could still be a white southerener and not wear the T-shirt, or hold certain social views about the CSA. The owner stating: "No service to you, I am sick of red neck accents in here", would probably support an case of ethnic discrimination because accents are innate.
    No, public accommodations are required to serve everyone. The only exception is that service can refused for reasons that have "legitimate business reason" - (actually, there's a legal term for it, but I forget what it is)

    Also, there are exceptions for expressive organizations for which refusing service for political reasons is allowed in order to protect the free speech rights of the business owners (ie the right to not speak) if their performing the service would lead reasonable people to believe that they support or agree with the speech.

    The law is complicated, so there may be other exceptions but the general rule is that public accommodations must serve everybody and they may not refuse service on the basis of "I didn't want to". There must be a clear and articulable reason that is related to the business.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    No they have no term of service requirement that requires on line merchants to drop products when Paypal demands that they do. It is pure discrimination or, as I put it, it is their desire not to have me as a customer.
    If they've targeted your products unfairly that's a contract issue not a discrimination issue. Apples and oranges.

    If the credit card companies wanted to bar muslims from doing business with them, I would view it as stupid business but it should not be illegal business. Stupid businesses, by the way, don't seem to last very long.
    But "stupid business" persisted in the U.S. in the South for several HUNDRED years, over 100 years after slavery was ended.

    Let me explain my position another way. The country was founded on the concept of equality and I certainly support that.
    But it really wasn't, obviously. It was based on the concept of equality for white men, for the most part. I understand what the founding documents said, but the reality was entirely different. What I think anti-discrimination laws do is get us closer to the ideals of the founding document where all men (and women) are created equally and treated equally - which is what matters after all. Perhaps blacks were created equally by God, but it meant little to them as persons until my lifetime when we through legislation ensured they were TREATED equally under the law.

    You can't have a country that treats all men and women equally, and make it legal to arbitrarily discriminate some class or classes of them solely because of a personal characteristic such as race, color, religion, or sexual orientation.

    It was not founded on the concept of fairness which is the opposite of equality. Equality is an objective measure. For the government to treat everyone the same is equality and that equality is easy for anyone to understand. Fairness is a subjective thing. What is fair or not fair varies from person to person. It treats people differently to benefit one group of people over another. I don't support that. As an example the Civil Rights Act was a positive action because it addressed equality. Affirmative action, on the other hand, was a negative action because it addressed fairness....
    The CRA explicitly requires businesses to serve customers without regard to race, color, religion or national origin. So do you mean the CRA except for Title II? It does what should be extended to sexual orientation in my view.

    And this isn't really about "fairness." What we're discussing is the prospect that if a white man can walk into a business and buy X, or obtain X in services, so can a black, Jewish, gay man, on identical terms as any other customer. The business isn't required to be "fair" in its dealings with either customer, it just cannot arbitrarily and unpredictably decide "No Ni**ers or F*gs Allowed" at its whim.

    I believe in freedom on both sides of the transaction. Consumers can choose their suppliers. Suppliers should be able to choose their consumers. It addresses equality. That doesn't mean that there won't be friction or that some people won't be dissatisfied. Life is like that and I prefer to let people live their lives as they fit rather than having the government determine how it should be lived. It just means that freedom goes both ways.
    Again, it's nice the proponents of discrimination can brush aside the consequences as "dissatisfied." Of course the consequences can be much more significant than mere inconvenience. But if those are the consequences on 2015 for most people (undoubtedly true) it's because the CRA made discrimination already illegal for most disfavored minorities, and so there are few groups left from whom it's legal to arbitrarily deny goods or services - so equal treatment in the market has been shoved down the throats of the business community for nearly 50 by Big Government, and that has become, thankfully, the norm, what is expected.

    Like everyone else, I don't like personal discrimination. If a business discriminates, it is appropriate for people to say so, just as they would with a business that cheats people. But I draw the line at government intruding in the subject and attempting to achieve "fairness."
    I guess we disagree. I don't like it, and believe it's serious enough to prevent, by law. And I don't see that public accommodation laws seek fairness but rather equality in the marketplace, so that a black/Muslim/gay/woman and/or business owned by those groups has EQUAL access to all the same goods and services as a white Christian business.

    FWIW, we prosecute businesses that cheat people - it's a crime.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    Because the rural ****holes in the state want to force the 12 more enlightened counties to allow such discrimination. Where is the "states' rights" crowd now in calling for the rights of counties and cities to determine their own values?
    Beats hell out of me. Anyone who respects the rule of law and the Constitution of the U.S. is part of the "states' rights" crowd. The Tenth Amendment is not just decoration, but an important part of the Constitution. And anyone who does not know what the term "federalism" means might want to learn about it. It is one of several bulwarks against abuse of power designed into the structure of the Constitution. The Supreme Court commented on this in New York v. United States, a Tenth Amendment decision from 1990.

    Your remark about the rights of counties and cities is at least good for a laugh. States are sovereigns (there's that Tenth Amendment again, which collectivists hate so much) and as such have inherent power to make laws and policies. The Court has referred to this as the "police (as in "policy," not the cops) power." Counties and cities are creatures of their states, and as such they have no inherent powers at all. They have only those powers the states saw fit to give them through enabling laws. States in some cases have given them quite a lot of autonomy, but the state can also take it away.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Samhain View Post
    Since ugly is a subjective(so is fat and smelly), I would think you could legally refuse service since those are not protected classes.
    Public accomodations must serve everybody. There are exceptions but they do not include "because I didn't want to"
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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