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Thread: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    A common trope, but a misrepresentation of the truth, which is that the common factor among those who voted for prop 8 were church goers. Well known is that a major force behind the passing of prop 8 was the LDS based out of Utah.

    Mormon church reports spending $180,000 on Proposition 8 | L.A. NOW | Los Angeles Times







    True, their platform is state and business rights, which just happen to be cited every time a discussion on discrimination against gays come up. The correlation is not inconsistent.



    I don't dispute this, but I'm curious just the same where you got this (again, not disputing it).



    I really can't relate to this. I make a certain kind of product for my clients, anybody can come up to me and pay me for that product. What they cannot do is commission me to make a kind of product that is outside the norm of what I do and I have in fact turned down clients a number of times for this reason. But it wasn't because what the clients were. I simply cannot understand the mentality of living in a country that allows one to start their own business and succeed, only to turn around and put their foot down on someone else. It's utterly un-American in my mind. /soapbox
    300 Republicans Call on Supreme Court to Recognize Gay Marriage
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    My point was that blacks voted in favor of Proposition 8 on the same ballot where they voted for Barack Obama and the Democratic candidates. That was in response to his claim that the Republican base "hates gays".

    By that statistic I guess 58% of black voters in California hate gays.

    What you said was "If I recall correctly, it was the black voters who passed Proposition 8 in the blue state of California."


    It wasn't black voters that passed Prop 8, I was pointing out that "Blacks" were fairly low on the demographic scale of impact on the final outcome ranking behind other demographics.



    >>>>

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    1.)This would render protected groups meaningless, yet there's so much legislation tied to them. So they are not meaningless.
    2.)Perhaps in theory, but not in reality.
    3.)So which entity fined the Christian bakers? For refusing to server the couple? That'd be government. So obviously there must be a law to empowered them to assess the fine. Unless this particular government was acting lawlessly, which might be the case. Certainly overreach, if you ask me.
    4.)I think I just did.
    5.)Not in any sort of practical sense.
    6.)Not in any sort of practical sense.

    7.)You dare not say no for fear that I try to claim sexual orientation discrimination.
    8.) Regardless of if I can or not, it'd still cost you a ton of money in legal fees to prepare a defense.
    1.) no matter your opinions we are all protected groups . . all of us. if you disagree describe a person who is not protected . . .you will fail
    2.) in reality already proved it with examples, if you disagree give me a person i cant refuse service to and ill show you how
    3.) i dont believe the bakers were ever fined BUT if they were the fact you are missing they were NEVER fined for not serving a "protected" group since that is NOT a crime.
    SO obviously you are factually wrong and have been for pages but you simply dont understand the topic enough to know that. fact remains there is ZERO laws forcing service to groups in this case.
    4.) yes we know you "think" you did but facts, rights, laws, links, examples and reality all prove you wrong
    5.) see #4
    6.) see #4
    7.) since im honest, objective and topically educated on this subject i would have ZERO fear of refusing you service because i know its not against the law. You are wrong again
    8.) wouldnt cost me anything because if i said no there are no laws broken
    fact remains i can "refuse service" to anybody i want and there are no laws forcing me to say yes
    facts win again

    if you disagree simply tell us all the law that forces me to serve everybody or gays or Christian . . please tell us the la in your next post. You will dodge this question.
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    What you said was "If I recall correctly, it was the black voters who passed Proposition 8 in the blue state of California."


    It wasn't black voters that passed Prop 8, I was pointing out that "Blacks" were fairly low on the demographic scale of impact on the final outcome ranking behind other demographics.



    >>>>
    Yes and those were not the correct words. I should know better in the context of a discussion to make sure that every single post relates back to what I'm saying or responding to.

    But thanks for the statistic which proves that 58% of the black voters in California (who voted as Democrats on that same ballot) hate gays.
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    They're not discriminating against you - they're presumably enforcing uniform terms of service applicable to everyone. And I don't agree that it's OK for discriminatory practices to potentially prohibit some other person from engaging in commerce. If you do, if you think it would be OK for Mastercard and Visa and AMEX to shut out all Muslims, and effectively bar them from the online marketplace because they're Muslim, that's an opinion I don't share, but you have to accept that as a potential downside.
    No they have no term of service requirement that requires on line merchants to drop products when Paypal demands that they do. It is pure discrimination or, as I put it, it is their desire not to have me as a customer.

    If the credit card companies wanted to bar muslims from doing business with them, I would view it as stupid business but it should not be illegal business. Stupid businesses, by the way, don't seem to last very long.

    Let me explain my position another way. The country was founded on the concept of equality and I certainly support that. It was not founded on the concept of fairness which is the opposite of equality. Equality is an objective measure. For the government to treat everyone the same is equality and that equality is easy for anyone to understand. Fairness is a subjective thing. What is fair or not fair varies from person to person. It treats people differently to benefit one group of people over another. I don't support that. As an example the Civil Rights Act was a positive action because it addressed equality. Affirmative action, on the other hand, was a negative action because it addressed fairness. That doesn't say that it is a bad thing to hire more blacks. It says that it is not the government's role to specify what race a business's hires should represent. That is not equality. Is it fair? Yes for black job applicants, no for employers. We need to get back to equality which is objective.

    I believe in freedom on both sides of the transaction. Consumers can choose their suppliers. Suppliers should be able to choose their consumers. It addresses equality. That doesn't mean that there won't be friction or that some people won't be dissatisfied. Life is like that and I prefer to let people live their lives as they fit rather than having the government determine how it should be lived. It just means that freedom goes both ways.

    Like everyone else, I don't like personal discrimination. If a business discriminates, it is appropriate for people to say so, just as they would with a business that cheats people. But I draw the line at government intruding in the subject and attempting to achieve "fairness."

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    What's the name of the physician? Shouldn't it be made public? And did the physician tell your friend that he was refusing to treat him because he's gay? Was it a scheduled appointment?
    Dunno, fishing for more information. My friend and his partner have live in the tiny town of Fairmount Indiana since 1980 and this type of thing is nothing new to them. It just may get worse now.
    Give a man a fish and he can eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he can sit in a boat, drinking beer all day while you fool around with his Woman.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryChinaski View Post
    Dunno, fishing for more information. My friend and his partner have live in the tiny town of Fairmount Indiana since 1980 and this type of thing is nothing new to them. It just may get worse now.
    Please post the details when you get them. Are you saying that your friend has been denied medical treatment in Indiana since 1980 because he's gay? And this isn't public knowledge?
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by cpgrad08 View Post
    The bill needs to be changed so that businesses to reject any customer for any reason they want.
    That's actually more correct of a view than Pence's. First I am not intimately familiar with hospital policy but I do not remember seeing a question about sexual preference on the information sheet either at the emergency room nor at my doctors or surgeons office. Nor has my sexual preference ever been asked to me or anyone in my family at a hospital - so the thought that hospitals are going to start turning away gay people is fiction. Second - from an ideological standpoint - cpgrad08 is correct. If Pence is going to sign some law saying private business can turn gays away, it must be an even playing field. A black business can turn away whites, a muslim based business can turn away christians, a gay business can turn away non-gays... and vice versa.

    The question is I don't know where all of that gets us..... what does this improve? To me it simply gives people and now businesses more of an excuse to discriminate against others instead of accepting to others. And lets face it - a business can simply fib about something and deny someone they do not like for whatever reason. If a bakery wants to no bake something for someone they can simply say they are booked up and cannot meet the customer's deadline - then refer them somewhere else. They don't have to say "We don't serve _______".
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Big ole giant "meh" for me.

    Would I push for such a law being needed? No. But I'm also not one to think that we're at such a place in society where one will routinely enter into a location where only one option for a particluar place of business or where this kind of thing would be so rampant that it will have any kind of truly impactful factor on an individuals life.

    I think our society is in such a place that if you established that outside of essential services (like medical care) a business owner has the ability to dictate who he wishes to provide his services to that it would have little actual effect on peoples lives and the reality is that most business would cater to all as it's far more financially viable of a decision.

    Strangely enough, my issue with this law isn't so much the notion of discrimination in a private matter being allowed, but rather the seemingly discriminatory way in which it's authorizing the discrimination via claims of a "religious" belief.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Isn't this bill a State version of the Federal law passed in 1993, and mimics the same in 20 other States?

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