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Thread: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

  1. #411
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Blemonds View Post
    This is excellent news. Hopefully this reinforcement of the concept of liberty will spread. Kudos to Mike Pence
    Mike Penace should think about the legacy he is leaving for his grandchildren and their grandchildren. Not many people can say their grandpa was a state governor, and if I could, I would want to be proud of his actions. In 20 more years, his actions are going look as ass backwards as supporting racial segregation.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Mike Penace should think about the legacy he is leaving for his grandchildren and their grandchildren. Not many people can say their grandpa was a state governor, and if I could, I would want to be proud of his actions. In 20 more years, his actions are going look as ass backwards as supporting racial segregation.
    Are you aware the Indiana RFRA largely follows the federal RFRA of 1993? Chuck Schumer of NY put it forward. (He was in the House of Representatives then.) How's Schumer's legacy?
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by beefheart View Post
    And if a governor decides to pass a bill allowing discrimination of whatever YOU are?

    Then what?
    I am sure he gets pissed every time he hears about a bakery going out of business after refusing to decorate cakes for gay weddings. I have seen countless of conservatives gripping about that in threads here.

    Any business that hangs a "we don't serve homosexuals" sign in Indiana, deserves to be protested and run out of business, and I will gladly take part in the protest. I currently live in Indianapolis, but I am not from here.

    Side note: What is the current status of gay marriage in Indiana? I know Pence has been fighting against gay marriage, and they were briefly legal. I am not sure where the issue stands now.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I am sure he gets pissed every time he hears about a bakery going out of business after refusing to decorate cakes for gay weddings. I have seen countless of conservatives gripping about that in threads here.

    Any business that hangs a "we don't serve homosexuals" sign in Indiana, deserves to be protested and run out of business, and I will gladly take part in the protest. I currently live in Indianapolis, but I am not from here.

    Side note: What is the current status of gay marriage in Indiana? I know Pence has been fighting against gay marriage, and they were briefly legal. I am not sure where the issue stands now.
    Legally recognized since October.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    1) It's beside the point. Once I reach unconscionable and morally repugnant, I am not all that concerned about factual.
    Hmmm..ok. I guess there is nothing I can do about that.

    2) I don't agree that there is any moral distinction between deliberately allowing a preventable death and being the cause of a death. I know libertarians like to use the example of the drowning man - do I have an obligation to risk my life to save his? OK, difficult. But if I'm in a boat and all it takes is me throwing out a life preserver and a rope to save a life, and I choose not do, I've caused that death as much as if I threw him overboard.
    Well, I don't think that makes any sense. If I fail to save some guy that fell overboard I didn't kill him and more likely no one else did. The guy just fell off the boat. No one is responsible for that.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Conventions in Indiana? I've been to conventions all over the world, and never one there. I'm not sure how the threats to Pence are going to work...they said Arizona was dead after Brewer signed her bill into law, and tourism hasn't suffered there.

    I'll bet SCOTUS will overturn this easily.
    Maybe, but it's not that obvious to me how state RFRA's interact with state public accommodations law that prohibit denying service because of sexual orientation. (I doubt Indiana is the first state in which this has come up). And I'm not sure the Supreme Court would be interested in taking a case like this. The Hobby Lobby decision goes somewhat into the question of how far the Free Exercise Clause allows a private person to refuse commercial transactions under its decisions (Sunday closing laws, Kosher butchers, etc.)

    But the federal RFRA, the basis for the decision in Hobby Lobby, complicates things by restoring the wider view of free exercise the Court took before it drastically narrowed it in Employment Div. v. Smith in 1990. States began passing their own RFRA's after 1997, when the Court struck down a part of the federal RFRA that applied it to states in City of Boerne v. Flores. It's not completely clear yet how far these state RFRA's can reach.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    The Indiana RFRA largely follows the federal RFRA of 1993, originally presented by (then) Representative Chuck Schumer of New York.
    Yes, I get that, but I responded to someone who wants to permit any and all discrimination for any reason.

    And at some level I have serious reservations about using the RFRA as a basis to discriminate in business. If we're talking about what we support, I'd much rather we be straightforward about it and either allow discrimination for any reason, perhaps against only some disfavored minorities (not OK for blacks and Jews, OK for gays and Muslims...), or prohibit it - obviously my preference. The fact that some individuals base their bigotry on religion doesn't change anything meaningful in my view. Does it make sense for a straight up f*g hating homophobe to be required to serve someone but another business that claims a religious basis for essentially the same sentiment get a pass? That doesn't make any sense.

    And I'm quite sure Chuck Shumer didn't support or propose the RFRA so that businesses could use religion as a means to discriminate in commerce, so I'm not really sure what that has to do with anything. I can't imagine they anticipated that the inability to refuse service to homosexuals was a substantial burden for Christians engaged in a business open to the public.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Wrong.

    People are free to start their businesses as membership clubs. Then they are free to discriminate. No one is forced to run their business as a public accomodation, but if they choose to do so, they have to actually serve the public.
    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    For profit "membership clubs" are typically not except from Public Accommodation laws. To be exempt they have to be: Not-for-Profit, have bylaws and criteria, have a restrictive membership relative to the statement membership, and be governed by an elected board of the members.


    Nobody would think that Costco, Sam's Club, and BJ's Warehouse would be exempt from Pubic Accommodation laws even though people pay a membership fee to join.


    >>>>
    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    For profit clubs can be restrictive in their membership

    I didn't say otherwise.

    What I said was that a for-profit business calling themselves a "private club" does not automatically exempt themselves from Pubic Accommodation laws - which is different from what you said.

    * Selective membership and admission policies, such policies cannot intended to evade Public Accommodation laws

    * Bylaws and adherence to bylaws

    * Membership control over governance, non-membership control will disqualify an entity from being exempt from Public Accommodation laws.

    * A clear non-business statement of purpose, commercial or business directed purposes don't qualify for exemption from Public Accommodation laws

    * Operation as a "non-profit" entity, "for-profit" activities will typically disqualify an entity from being exempt from Public Accommodation laws

    * Advertisement and use of facilities, advertising availablity of resources typically will disqualify an entity from Pubic Accommodation laws


    https://www.nationalclub.org/clientu...nt%20marks.pdf
    Private club legal definition of Private club
    http://www.cmaa.org/uploadedFiles/PC...une02legal.pdf
    http://scholarship.law.umt.edu/cgi/v...vate%20club%22


    >>>>

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Well, I don't think that makes any sense. If I fail to save some guy that fell overboard I didn't kill him and more likely no one else did. The guy just fell off the boat. No one is responsible for that.
    Seriously? So if your daughter falls overboard and some man is 10 feet away with a rope and life preserver and instead of throwing it to your daughter and saving her life, he grabs another beer and continues watching the beautiful sunset. You're good with that?

    Of course you wouldn't be - you know it, we know it - if you're a normal human being, you're likely to rip his head off if given half a chance, so why make this pretense that it's morally neutral? Literally no one would conclude that if it was their loved one who wasn't saved.
    Last edited by JasperL; 03-26-15 at 08:07 PM.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Conventions in Indiana? I've been to conventions all over the world, and never one there. I'm not sure how the threats to Pence are going to work...they said Arizona was dead after Brewer signed her bill into law, and tourism hasn't suffered there.

    I'll bet SCOTUS will overturn this easily.
    Did I miss something in Arizona. She at least originally vetoed that bill.

    Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer vetoes SB 1062, controversial anti-gay bill - CNN.com

    Wed February 26, 2014

    Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer vetoed a bill Wednesday that would have allowed businesses that asserted their religious beliefs the right to deny service to gay and lesbian customers.

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