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Thread: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Conventions in Indiana? : shock: I've been to conventions all over the world and never one there. I'm not sure how the threats to Pence are going to work...they said Arizona was dead after Brewer signed her bill into law, and tourism hasn't suffered there.

    I'll bet SCOTUS will overturn this easily.
    I wouldn't bet too much on the Supreme Court of the US. A couple of the Jurists (Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia) are under the strong financial influence of the Koch brothers and are paid handsomely. Justice Samuel Alito is very conservative and allowed foreign money to come into America to possibly influence elections. Justice Anthony Kennedy is usually a swing vote and, for the most part, unreliable as to which way he will go.
    "The only constant in life is change."
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    OK, this is why debating with libertarians is often so pointless. Sure, you're correctly repeating standard libertarian ideology, and it's totally unhinged from reality, unconscionable from a public policy standpoint, and obviously morally repugnant.
    Well ok, but it is factual, right? If their condition was not changed how can you claim they were harmed?

    Well, to be fair, you wouldn't hold a hospital responsible for withholding life saving care, so obviously this isn't a problem in libertarian land....
    Your client is mad. I don't see how that is good standing for law.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Atiya View Post
    I wouldn't bet too much on the Supreme Court of the US. A couple of the Jurists (Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia) are under the strong financial influence of the Koch brothers and are paid handsomely. Justice Samuel Alito is very conservative and allowed foreign money to come into America to possibly influence elections. Justice Anthony Kennedy is usually a swing vote and, for the most part, unreliable as to which way he will go.
    and of course that other tiny detail that there's nothing unconstitutional about the act.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by cpgrad08 View Post
    The bill needs to be changed so that businesses to reject any customer for any reason they want.
    LOL. Maybe they'll need to change their slogan a bit. "Honest-to-Goodness Indiana! Blacks, gays, Jews, Muslims may not be welcome!"

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    LOL. Maybe they'll need to change their slogan a bit. "Honest-to-Goodness Indiana! Blacks, gays, Jews, Muslims may not be welcome!"
    The Indiana RFRA largely follows the federal RFRA of 1993, originally presented by (then) Representative Chuck Schumer of New York.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by SenorXm/Sirius View Post
    Hate is a great powerful tool. It unifies the GOP base. The GOP base hates gays more then they are willing to vote for their own interests. And that's exactly how the anti-gay Republican politicians like it.

    And here we go again.

    The lefts generic, empty and baseless charges of " hate " and " Bigotry ". Its a silly attempt to bully your way into relevance.

    No need for thoughtful diaglogue, just start throwing around vindictives when you dont get your way.

    You realize there are consequences to calling everyone who disagrees with you childish names, right ?

    It marginalizes your position and cheapens your agenda. No one but a few like minded people agree with you and you just wind up isolating yourself and setting yourself up for a huge backlash from the vast majority of Americans who you've just insulted

    I like it. Keep it up !! Good plan !! Lol.
    " If no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else ? "
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Well ok, but it is factual, right? If their condition was not changed how can you claim they were harmed?
    1) It's beside the point. Once I reach unconscionable and morally repugnant, I am not all that concerned about factual.

    2) I don't agree that there is any moral distinction between deliberately allowing a preventable death and being the cause of a death. I know libertarians like to use the example of the drowning man - do I have an obligation to risk my life to save his? OK, difficult. But if I'm in a boat and all it takes is me throwing out a life preserver and a rope to save a life, and I choose not do, I've caused that death as much as if I threw him overboard.

    Your client is mad. I don't see how that is good standing for law.
    More than that, I've been harmed.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I can appreciate that and it would be relevant if the business we're talking about here was one that involved membership, dues, and other conditions of association. You're local bakery or variety store isn't such a business.
    It's true that the Court has distinguished between commercial and expressive association, especially in the Jaycees case, which involved a Minnesota public accommodations law. The involvement of the Jaycees in commerce did play a role in the Court's decision that the state law did not violate the organization's freedom of association by requiring it to admit women. But if you read what the Court said about this, it suggests that the smaller and less strictly involved in commerce an organization is, the stronger its freedom of association argument is likely to be. There are probably quite a few kinds of smaller organizations that are involved in commercial activity to some extent, and yet could not be forced to have dealings with certain people against the will of their members.

    It's not hard, either, to think of all sorts of private businesses that involve artistic expression. A state law that defined businesses like that as public accommodations and prohibited them from refusing to enter into contracts with certain specified groups of people could run afoul of a related First Amendment freedom, the freedom of speech--artistic expression is speech for constitutional purposes. The freedom of speech also includes the freedom not to speak, which means laws which compel certain speech will usually be unconstitutional. In Wooley, that was the basis on which the Court held a New Hampshire law under which a man was fined for taping over the state motto "Live Free or Die" on his license plate . He disagreed with that view on religious grounds, and the Court said the government could not compel him to endorse it.

    There is also language in Pruneyard Shopping Center, another government-compelled speech case, that strongly suggests a small business owner could not be forced to allow his property to used to promote views with which he disagreed. In effect, that is what the Coeur d'Alene ordinance would have done to the owners of the Hitching Post wedding chapel by requiring them to let their facility be used for same-sex weddings, although I think that was not the basis for the suit challenging the ordinance.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Conventions in Indiana? I've been to conventions all over the world, and never one there. I'm not sure how the threats to Pence are going to work...they said Arizona was dead after Brewer signed her bill into law, and tourism hasn't suffered there.

    I'll bet SCOTUS will overturn this easily.
    They are actual tourist attractions like the Grand Canyon in Arizona. Indiana isn't much of a tourist attraction unless you like car racing.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    If I recall correctly, it was the black voters who passed Proposition 8 in the blue state of California. They aren't Republicans.
    A common trope, but a misrepresentation of the truth, which is that the common factor among those who voted for prop 8 were church goers. Well known is that a major force behind the passing of prop 8 was the LDS based out of Utah.

    Mormon church reports spending $180,000 on Proposition 8 | L.A. NOW | Los Angeles Times

    Top officials with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints filed reports today indicating that they donated more than $180,000 in in-kind contributions to Proposition 8, the November ballot initiative that banned same-sex marriage in California.

    The contributions included tens of thousands of dollars for expenses such as airline tickets, hotel and restaurant bills and car-rental bills for top church officials such as L. Whitney Clayton, along with $96,849.31 worth of “compensated staff time” for church employees.
    The church said the expenditures took place between July 1 and the end of the year. The church’s involvement has been a major issue in the campaign and its aftermath. Individual Mormon families donated millions -- by some estimates more than $20 million -- of their own money to the campaign.


    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    I also don't recall anything in the Republican platform about denying service to gay people.
    True, their platform is state and business rights, which just happen to be cited every time a discussion on discrimination against gays come up. The correlation is not inconsistent.

    And I also recall earlier in this month when 300+ Republican lawmakers publicly appealed to SCOTUS to recognize same sex marriage nationally.
    I don't dispute this, but I'm curious just the same where you got this (again, not disputing it).

    Mike Pence doesn't speak for the RNC or the Republican base. Nor do his actions indicate that Republicans "hate gays". He's doing what he thinks is best for his state and to ensure that the religious people in his state aren't forced into commerce against their will.
    I really can't relate to this. I make a certain kind of product for my clients, anybody can come up to me and pay me for that product. What they cannot do is commission me to make a kind of product that is outside the norm of what I do and I have in fact turned down clients a number of times for this reason. But it wasn't because what the clients were. I simply cannot understand the mentality of living in a country that allows one to start their own business and succeed, only to turn around and put their foot down on someone else. It's utterly un-American in my mind. /soapbox
    Last edited by Cardinal; 03-26-15 at 07:41 PM.

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