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Thread: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    So keep it illegal for them to drink, just make it legal for them to purchase it so that commerce isn't hindered.
    That's one possibility.

    But the people have rejected that choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Conventions in Indiana? I've been to conventions all over the world, and never one there. I'm not sure how the threats to Pence are going to work...they said Arizona was dead after Brewer signed her bill into law, and tourism hasn't suffered there.

    I'll bet SCOTUS will overturn this easily.
    No, SCOTUS will likely not. The Indiana RFRA largely mirrors the 1993 federal RFRA, which has already been tested at SCOTUS and passed muster. In fact, it is the SCOTUS application of the federal RFRA that has led many who supported it to now oppose the Indiana version.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Whether or not I see something wrong with it is immaterial.

    I think it's wrong when it rains when I planned on doing something outdoors that required nice weather, but it rains anyway. That's how the weather works.

    And in a constitutional democracy, you can get the govt to do anything, but only if you get enough people to agree with you. That's how our govt works.

    And if you think that people should not be able to have the govt they want to have, but only be allowed to have the govt you think they should be allowed to have, then you are just as coercive and dismissive of "liberty" as anyone else.
    Wouldn't that only be a valid argument if I stopped them from leaving or put up barriers for them to get past for them to leave? If my system of government supported the absolute right of people to choose the political surroundings in which they lived and thus allowed them to come and go as they pleased, in what way would I be holding them down? If all I did was say they could not use the government to force their will on others is that really coercive?

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    How? If someone doesn't provide you a service they have not altered your condition. How were you harmed?
    You're assuming they haven't altered your condition, but there is a harm in every case - some choices are eliminated only because of some characteristic like color, religion, sexual orientation. The harm could be great although in 2015 likely small in most cases. We've discussed hospitals, but the harm there is obvious and immense - refusing service might result in your death.

    The harm could be smaller - my largest client is in town and wants to dine at the famous steak house. I make a reservation, we show up on time, dressed appropriately, courteous, etc. and find out they only serve whites and he's black or I'm black. Sure, I can find A restaurant, but my client is unhappy and that might affect my business, all because of arbitrary discrimination. Etc. We could come up with examples of how discrimination harms individuals all day long.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    People who provide essential goods and services don't have the same rights to religious beliefs?
    I don't give a rat's ass about religious beliefs. I am saying people should be able to discriminate for ANYTHING, be it religion, race, or politics.

    But essential services have to be held to a different standard because they are, well, essential. What would be an essential private service? The first thing that pops to mind is a pharmacy. Or a doctor but that can probably be handled by licensing.

    I am fine with one's bigotry preventing someone from getting a banana smoothie. I am not ok with it preventing them from getting their insulin.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    You're assuming they haven't altered your condition, but there is a harm in every case - some choices are eliminated only because of some characteristic like color, religion, sexual orientation. The harm could be great although in 2015 likely small in most cases. We've discussed hospitals, but the harm there is obvious and immense - refusing service might result in your death.
    Even in the case of hospitals if you are refused care they did not alter your condition. Sure, you might die without care, but that consequence was already in motion before you showed up, so they could not possibly be responsible for it.

    The harm could be smaller - my largest client is in town and wants to dine at the famous steak house. I make a reservation, we show up on time, dressed appropriately, courteous, etc. and find out they only serve whites and he's black or I'm black. Sure, I can find A restaurant, but my client is unhappy and that might affect my business, all because of arbitrary discrimination. Etc. We could come up with examples of how discrimination harms individuals all day long.
    Ah..I see, well, I'm not sure it is reasonable to hold someone accountable for your clients feelings.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by BrewerBob View Post
    I don't give a rat's ass about religious beliefs. I am saying people should be able to discriminate for ANYTHING, be it religion, race, or politics.
    OK. May bad.

    But essential services have to be held to a different standard because they are, well, essential. What would be an essential private service? The first thing that pops to mind is a pharmacy. Or a doctor but that can probably be handled by licensing.

    I am fine with one's bigotry preventing someone from getting a banana smoothie. I am not ok with it preventing them from getting their insulin.
    Food is not essential?

    How do the people who provide those essential goods and services come to have less of a right to discriminate?

    How does the govt come to have the power to forbid those people from exercising that right?
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Whether or not I see something wrong with it is immaterial.

    I think it's wrong when it rains when I planned on doing something outdoors that required nice weather, but it rains anyway. That's how the weather works.

    And in a constitutional democracy, you can get the govt to do anything, but only if you get enough people to agree with you. That's how our govt works.

    And if you think that people should not be able to have the govt they want to have, but only be allowed to have the govt you think they should be allowed to have, then you are just as coercive and dismissive of "liberty" as anyone else.
    The US is not a constitutional democracy. Democracy is a terrible political system. It's tyranny of the majority.
    "Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place."
    -- Frederic Bastiat

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
    Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers - CNN.com



    Wow. WTF Indiana????
    You trying to out-religious the bible-belt states?
    Is Indiana becoming Mississippi2.0 or something?

    This is going to be interesting to watch.
    The Indiana law is largely (although not exactly) patterned on the federal RFRA of 1993.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    No, SCOTUS will likely not. The Indiana RFRA largely mirrors the 1993 federal RFRA, which has already been tested at SCOTUS and passed muster. In fact, it is the SCOTUS application of the federal RFRA that has led many who supported it to now oppose the Indiana version.
    I will lay a Canuck dollar you are in error.

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