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Thread: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

  1. #3061
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Anyone remember this a while back?

    New Mexico Governor's Hairstylist Refuses Service Over Gay-Marriage Stance | TIME.com

    I wonder how people feel about the hair stylist refusing service over the governor's beliefs and lifestyle choices. Why should they be some hero for "equal rights" when in fact people are acting equally on their beliefs, just on the other side of the fence?

    People shouldn't be forced to do things that go against their convictions or moral character, period.
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I don't think that's exactly what DisneyDude was referring to. I think what he meant here...



    ...was that there likely were a few very powerful and influential business people who were pressuring the Indiana Governor/legislature (GOP) to enact a law that protected them against refusing to sell a product or provide a service to gays and lesbians without it being so obvious. Religious freedom provides such cover, i.e., "I don't have to provide a service to a gay couple because homosexuality is a sin and I'm a Christian. Therefore, I refuse to sell to you."

    Problem here is how would you know that a customer is, in fact, gay unless they told you? Sure, in some cases you can just look at a person and tell (i.e., mannerisms, behavior, voice inflection), but it's not quite so obvious with some people. So, unless they tell you how do you know?
    I understand your point, as I have what others have previously said, with my own interpretation of their objections. That is, that I clearly understand that gays are not protected necessarily. I don't understand why they actually have to be. Are you saying that Christians will not accomodate gay business as a rule because of this law? I don't think that's the case at all.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    1.)???? If you agree with me, what the hell are you arguing with me about????
    2/)God. It's like being trapped in a room with the DP version of Charlie Sheen.
    1.) not my fault you made up a strawman and moved the goal post
    2.) failed insults wont change the fact your claims were destroyed and proven wrong

    hint: being opposed to SSM is not the same as illegal discriminating against a gay couple, they are VERY different
    at no time were we discussing simply being opposed, glad i could help you with that mistake. You're welcome
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post

    People shouldn't be forced to do things that go against their convictions or moral character, period.
    why say things when you dont even really mean them . . .
    convictions and moral character are subjective things that dont matter to laws and rights.
    want a quick example that will make you disagree with your own statement? many many people have convictions and a moral character about when and when they would not have an abortion, yet you would be fine with forcing them to go against those . . . . .
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Anyone remember this a while back?

    New Mexico Governor's Hairstylist Refuses Service Over Gay-Marriage Stance | TIME.com

    I wonder how people feel about the hair stylist refusing service over the governor's beliefs and lifestyle choices. Why should they be some hero for "equal rights" when in fact people are acting equally on their beliefs, just on the other side of the fence?

    People shouldn't be forced to do things that go against their convictions or moral character, period.
    LMAO good luck on that. I don't think Governors face discrimination as per regular people of color, sexual orientation, etc...

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    The difference is....you don't see other religions trying to use the law as a shield to practice their bigotry. It is the radical Christian fundamentalists who are trying to politicize the law to allow their discrimination.

    In answer to your questions:
    1. I'm not sure exactly what you are asking. I would say that I think religions are free to have their own beliefs and preach their own beliefs even if in opposition to the government. They are, however, obligated to abide by the laws. They can't use their religion to write their own rules.
    2. No. Government should stay out of religion and religion should stay out of government. People should be able to practice any religion in their homes and in their churches and even in the public arena when it does not infringe upon the rights of others.
    3. Criminalizing the views of the religious? I don't see anyone doing that. I guess I would only support that if the religion was involved in something like animal sacrifice or other illegal activities. I do support the right of the government to enforce anti-discrimination laws. A business owner should not be able to turn about blacks because he doesn't like black people or mexicans or gays or anyone else. They don't have to open a business. If they do....they have to abide by the laws of this land.
    The religious are only asking that their religious liberty be given equal weight in the courts consideration with other civil liberties. This Law doesn't determine outcome, it enables reasonable outcomes for all parties.

    The reason I asked you the questions is because I don't believe you considered the other side. Let me give you an example: In Catholicism one receives grace via sacraments (rituals administered by the church under the authority of Christ). The most commonly thought of sacraments are baptism and communion, however matrimony is also a sacrament. This means that to the Catholic marriage as the church prescribes is an integral item of faith by which a believer receives grace and therefore in part receives salvation. Church doctrine is clear that marriage is between one man and one woman.

    Given the above information, certainly you could understand how some may believe that it would be improper to participate in a marriage (seen as a sacrament in their religious understanding) that does not conform to their standards of a righteous ceremony, while at the same time not feeling discriminatory but using discretion in their own religious life.

    If one were to go to a kosher butcher and ask that they provide ham for an upcoming Easter celebration, certainly they would expect the butcher to decline, no?
    "It is only when men contemplate the greatness of God that they can come to realize their own inadequacy." Jean Calvin

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    LMAO good luck on that. I don't think Governors face discrimination as per regular people of color, sexual orientation, etc...
    So, some discrimination is ok? I agree, and one has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason they please.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Yeah...it was just a short clip off you tube. I could probably find the whole thing and post it, but really who is going to sit and watch a 15 minute link. I thought the editing was a little annoying myself...be that as it may....it does bring home the issue and that is....Pence is either lying....or did a really poor job in this interview. I'm not sure which. I believe it is the former because there would be no need to change the law if it didn't do what the critics say that it does. And it would explain why he refused to answer the question....because he knew the answer....and knew it wasn't going to play out well for what he was trying to do.
    the answer is simply that it's not a yes/no question, it's actually a slightly complex issue which only touches on that, which is what Pence was trying to get at. But ole George wasn't interested in that - he wanted a sound bite and he wanted one that would help kick off the War on Gays rhetoric for Hilllary 2016.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    The religious are only asking that their religious liberty be given equal weight in the courts consideration with other civil liberties. This Law doesn't determine outcome, it enables reasonable outcomes for all parties.

    The reason I asked you the questions is because I don't believe you considered the other side. Let me give you an example: In Catholicism one receives grace via sacraments (rituals administered by the church under the authority of Christ). The most commonly thought of sacraments are baptism and communion, however matrimony is also a sacrament. This means that to the Catholic marriage as the church prescribes is an integral item of faith by which a believer receives grace and therefore in part receives salvation. Church doctrine is clear that marriage is between one man and one woman.

    Given the above information, certainly you could understand how some may believe that it would be improper to participate in a marriage (seen as a sacrament in their religious understanding) that does not conform to their standards of a righteous ceremony, while at the same time not feeling discriminatory but using discretion in their own religious life.

    If one were to go to a kosher butcher and ask that they provide ham for an upcoming Easter celebration, certainly they would expect the butcher to decline, no?
    Not if they are not asking if the people had been divorced or if they use birth control or if they have been involved in other longterm sinful behavior, that they continue to be involved in. Catholics are supposed to ask the Church for an annulment of their marriage after a divorce in order to get remarried. But if someone isn't Catholic, they aren't likely to ask for such an annulment from their own church, so why would the Catholic baker cater a "2nd wedding" for someone who hasn't received a proper annulment of their previous one? That is adultery in the eyes of the Catholic Church.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    LOL....you are in for a rude awakening my friend if you truly believe what you posted. Religion is not a shield that allows people to write their own rules. Sorry Charlie.
    I believe everything I write here. And you are not my friend.

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