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Thread: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Being simply "an opposite sex couple" vice "a same sex couple", or "heterosexual" rather than "homosexual", is not a factor. If you are referring to other things, such as their personal health history, then you are the one miscontruing things. If you are basing treatment, including giving abortion or birth control drugs to a patient based on either their relative genders or their sexuality, that is illegal. It must be based on other factors to withhold treatment to a patient, any treatment, besides "well they're homosexual/heterosexual" or "they're a same sex couple/opposite sex couple".
    The point was that discrimination is perfectly ethical and legal, excepting certain legal regulations. Science isn't based in lefty dogma, even if many laws are.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    If you don't know the answer....I suggest that you take a conlaw course. There is a little something in the Constitution called "Equal protection" and the 14th Amendment. You might want to read them sometime.
    Our constitution creates a federal government, not a national one. State legislatures do not need to get the approval of "the American people" for the laws they make. The 14th Amendment Equal Protection Clause is not relevant to Indiana's RFRA. There are no significant differences between the Indiana statute and the federal RFRA that was the basis for the Supreme Court's decision in the Hobby Lobby case. In fact the Indiana law applies to for-profit corporations, just as the Court interpreted the federal RFRA to do in Hobby Lobby.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Good news!

    Arkansas has seen how the left and the LameStream has played with this issue and now their Senate just passed an RFRA. Which their Governor says he will sign the Bill. Get it to him Pronto-like.

    That should cause the left to go off on another tangent.....huh?
    Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Obama all voted for RFRA, its curious that its a problem now.

    My view-its a distraction while the Obama presidency continues to fail.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    You could make that point for some Christian religions. Most congregations would only draw the line, where participation is involved. You probably think that is a fine line and would be right. It is often a close call, but the difference here is quite obvious.
    I think it is. Beyond that this law only protects the business from being sued-thats all it does. I think thats reasonable.

    Whats amusing to me is minorities (who tend to vote democrat) overwhelmingly are against gay marriage. Its going to be interesting to see the left juggle this fact.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    The ACLU generally does NOT shop for causes. The way it works is that people file complaints with the ACLU. The only argument that you can make that the ACLU "Shops for causes" is that the ACLU does not respond to every complaint that they receive. It would be impossible. We had a board that would review the complaints once a month and we would decide how to respond to them and which ones we would take up. It generally was not based on any particular political view but rather which causes we believed had merit and that we could prevail on. Perhaps on a "national level" you may be correct, I am not sure. But on a state level at the ACLU we were not concerned about appellate courts, let alone the Supreme Court. We were primarily concerned with the state courts and whether we could prevail on behalf of the client.
    Not only do they not respond-because they dont want to put the resources into cases/jurisdictions where its not going to have an impact-but they actually LOOK for cases where the opposite might be true.

    Whats amusing to me is this is common knowledge. Frankly it standard practice in activist circles.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Our constitution creates a federal government, not a national one. State legislatures do not need to get the approval of "the American people" for the laws they make. The 14th Amendment Equal Protection Clause is not relevant to Indiana's RFRA. There are no significant differences between the Indiana statute and the federal RFRA that was the basis for the Supreme Court's decision in the Hobby Lobby case. In fact the Indiana law applies to for-profit corporations, just as the Court interpreted the federal RFRA to do in Hobby Lobby.
    There's where you are wrong. Read the statutes. I posted a link yesterday that laid out the very key differences. You might want to take a look.

    Here is the link again: http://www.indystar.com/story/news/p...rfra/70729888/

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Why does the law need to be changed then? If your side is telling the truth....there is no need for changes or any other kind of "clarification". Sorry...but use your head.
    The American people, outside of that state can pound sand.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    i have no idea, having no idea what you are referencing. But that is a different question than the one I was answering, and it is thus a bit of a strawman for you to attempt to conflate the two.
    It's simple enough. Your assertion, which is the basic talking point for conservatives, is the bill doesn't allow for discrimination, and that is indeed the history of the law. It hasn't (to this point) been anything like a blank check to claim a religious exemption to a general law. Fair enough.

    But the Governor of Indiana was asked six times if private businesses could discriminate in Indiana and six times said, paraphrasing, "No Comment."

    Maybe the point is it's always been legal to discriminate against LGBT in Indiana, so the law made no substantive change to acts already allowed except in a few jurisdictions in the state. So perhaps the big change is people can put a religious sheen on their acts of bigotry? Not sure. If so of course he can't say THAT, but he did say that he has no intention of supporting legislation that would protect LGBT in public accommodations.

    But what's funny is right wingers are telling gays there's nothing to worry about. But the Governor goes on national TV and SIX TIMES refuses to confirm that message. Proudly anti-SSM/gay supporters of the bill sold it as a way to protect Christians from teh gays, and of course they now oppose any "clarification" of the bill that would protect LGBT. Those supporters were invited to positions of honor at the bill signing, and Pence votes with them 100% of the time. Is there any wonder why people ARE worried? All they did was listen to Pence and the anti-SSM supporters of the bill who tell us the purpose of the bill is to allow for at least some discrimination against teh gays and who now oppose "clarifying" the bill to make any protections for LGBT explicit.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Not only do they not respond-because they dont want to put the resources into cases/jurisdictions where its not going to have an impact-but they actually LOOK for cases where the opposite might be true.

    Whats amusing to me is this is common knowledge. Frankly it standard practice in activist circles.
    I would agree with that...but it is not the over-riding concern in my experience. The #1 criteria for whether we took up a complaint was whether the person had a righteous claim and was likely to prevail. Obviously...if the case could have a broader impact, that was another factor that encouraged us to accept the case. If it were something that the only impact would be on the individual, then the ACLU was probably not the best organization to bring the claim forward as we had limited resources and had a duty to those who donated to make the best use of the money.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Nope, the objection is to the activity. They did not refuse to make the cake because the person was gay. They refused to make a cake for an ACTIVTY that they found objectionable. For all they knew, the person ordering the cake was straight. So the customer wasn't refused service based upon their particular protected status.

    So if the person ordering the cake for the gay wedding was straight, there would be no discrimination.
    No. The relative sexes of the people involved in the event was the reason for the refusal, their presumed sexuality (many laws actually include presumed sexuality as protected from discrimination too). Just as if the mother of the bride ordered the cake for her daughter's wedding, since her daughter was not in the state but returning to the state for the wedding (the same as I did). Mom is making arrangements and when she goes to pick out the cake, she shows a picture to the person of her daughter and her daughter's husband to be, who is black while the woman and her daughter are white. The baker then tells her he can't provide a cake for her wedding because his religion objects to interracial marriages/relationships (some still do) believing they are sinful. That is still illegal discrimination, despite the fact that it isn't against the actual person buying the cake.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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