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Thread: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

  1. #2841
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgasm View Post
    As if it were a baker's job to approve of marriages. Do Catholic bakers object to making wedding cakes for people who are getting married for the second, third, fourth, etc. time? Of course not. This selective objection is bigotry.
    A baker has the right to decide if he wants to provide a cake or not. That right should be protected by the state, not denied by the state. Same applies to Catholic bakers

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    Indeed.

    TX has a similar bill pending and there's already talk of the NFL 'butting in" and moving the Super Bowl from Houston should the law take effect. Yet just last week the Left was howling about how the NCAA [training ground for the NFL, NBA, MLB, etc], while making billions in profit, was abusing student athletes and taking monies away from Liberal arts programs.
    If the NFL butts in, shouldn't they lose their nonprofit status?

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by humbolt View Post
    I don't feel compelled to answer loaded questions. I haven't had a substantial response to any of mine from those objecting other than references to assumed intentions. Show me the rights violations committed in Indiana and at least offer some substance to your objection to the law passed. Please note that I'm not saying there aren't any. There may well be some significant violation, and I'll change my opinion, but to date I'm not aware of any significant violations that this law would condone.
    Asking about the intention of the bill (which most here know damn well what is was about -- WHO were the people who wrote it) -- What they said about -- Why they did it now -- and what was said during legislative session -- is not an invalid question --

    You consider it loaded, fine. Everyone knows what the intention was - even though you (like Pence did on Sunday) get all afiggedy when asked about it.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    I love the swirl around this its awesome. Like i keep saying, any bill like this that rejects the exemptions, goes beyond employee protections, doesnt protect equal rights and has to many grey areas will eventually lose and simply HELP equal rights. It will be nothing more that a brick in the road to equality and sweet sweet irony. I hope these idiots keep up the good work just ilke banning. In the end all it does is expose them for what they are and thier own actions help cement equal rights even further. SOME people can keep up thier fight all they want and cry and moan but equal rights is winning and will continue to do so.
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    We discussed it a while back. You thought the discrimination against the conscientious objector fins and I thought the gay movement position bigotry and a vile shift in the meaning of the Constitution.
    Conscientious objector has an actual definition, and it has to do with refusal to bear arms in a military conflict due to their beliefs (doesn't have to be religious based, at least not here in the US). It is not simply someone who objects on the basis of religious beliefs.

    Conscientious objector | Define Conscientious objector at Dictionary.com

    And I've never had any issue with conscientious objectors, but that is a whole different topic.

    If you are referring the photographer, the "state" did not put her out of business, as you claim. She chose to do something else, I'm assuming, since I can't find anything about her or her business besides the case. It may be that other forces put her out of business or her fight against the ruling cost her too much (although most of those lawyers defending rights will work either pro bono or are paid by a fund of donations). She was only required to pay about $7000 to the other woman/couple for their lawyer, and to agree not to discriminate. If she couldn't agree to that, which is a basic agreement when it comes to actually operating a business, a basic law, then she chose to be out of business. The state did not force her.

    If you are referring to either baker, then it has been discussed. Neither is actually out of business (both had donations made to a fund by others to cover their fines/lawyer). One lost their store front shop due to loss of sales (they haven't even been given an actual amount for their fine yet). The other claims to have stopped selling wedding cakes (but still advertises for them on his website).
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Blemonds View Post
    A baker has the right to decide if he wants to provide a cake or not. That right should be protected by the state, not denied by the state. Same applies to Catholic bakers
    Yet they are bigoted in who they deny their services to.

    You do realize that this "religious freedom" was tried before against black folks because they had the "mark of Cain"? That's why we have public accomodation laws.
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Blemonds View Post
    And that is the goal, to force Christians, in particular, out of the marketplace. And the question remains. What is the ultimate consequence if Christians stand on their religious beliefs and refuse to offer services for homosexual weddings?
    The same consequence if anyone else, Muslim, Jew, KKK, skinhead, just simply a racist/sexist/homophobic person faces, lawsuits and/or a loss of business due to people not wishing to do business with you. And it could easily work both ways. Not only could customers refuse to do business with you, but so too could suppliers. Their refusal would not be based on your religion, but rather your actions in relation to your beliefs.

    And it works the same for whatever people are discriminating against others on. If a place is refusing to serve white people or Asians, then that should be brought to the public's attention so the rest of the public can, hopefully, avoid giving their money to that place. If a particular business refuses to serve women or men, that too should be brought to the public's attention so the rest of the public can, again hopefully, not spend money at that place. It is really little different than what happened to the Dixie Chicks. They ticked off their main base of listeners, leading to a boycott of their music. People (including myself) no longer wanted to give our money to them.

    Again, this is the very concept that most conservatives/libertarians use to justify why we don't really need anti-discrimination/public accommodation laws (or at least have such an expanded view on what is a public accommodation).
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Blemonds View Post
    Looks like the narrative has to change in order to fit the agenda. The truth is winning out here as we're seeing that it was indeed the event that was objectionable, not the persons
    Someone else made that claim. You jumped in on something I felt needed to be addressed before I corrected it with the information I have found in researching this issue.

    If a Jew refuses to sell a bar mitzvah cake to a Christian for his son's coming of age party, claiming that he only sells traditional bar mitzvah cakes and he believes only Jews should have bar mitzvahs, is it based on the event or the religion of the person requesting the cake?

    How about a Christian baker refusing to sell a cake to a non-Christian with the words "Merry Christmas" on it, claiming that those are only for people who believe in the true meaning of Christmas? After all, how does the baker know that the non-Christian isn't going to use the cake for some sort of other celebration rather than for Christmas?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Blemonds View Post
    The intended use of a wedding cake is to eat it in celebration of a marriage, an objectionable marriage in this case in the eyes of the baker
    Objectionable due to the people involved, their sexuality, their relative sexes. That is illegal discrimination based on the people involved in the event, their classification, protected, at least in those states where this issue has seen lawsuits/court cases/claims. The law is clear on this and the courts agree.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  10. #2850
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Conscientious objector has an actual definition, and it has to do with refusal to bear arms in a military conflict due to their beliefs (doesn't have to be religious based, at least not here in the US). It is not simply someone who objects on the basis of religious beliefs.

    Conscientious objector | Define Conscientious objector at Dictionary.com

    And I've never had any issue with conscientious objectors, but that is a whole different topic.

    If you are referring the photographer, the "state" did not put her out of business, as you claim. She chose to do something else, I'm assuming, since I can't find anything about her or her business besides the case. It may be that other forces put her out of business or her fight against the ruling cost her too much (although most of those lawyers defending rights will work either pro bono or are paid by a fund of donations). She was only required to pay about $7000 to the other woman/couple for their lawyer, and to agree not to discriminate. If she couldn't agree to that, which is a basic agreement when it comes to actually operating a business, a basic law, then she chose to be out of business. The state did not force her.

    If you are referring to either baker, then it has been discussed. Neither is actually out of business (both had donations made to a fund by others to cover their fines/lawyer). One lost their store front shop due to loss of sales (they haven't even been given an actual amount for their fine yet). The other claims to have stopped selling wedding cakes (but still advertises for them on his website).
    I know people like yourself hate the spin that conscientious objection lends the argument. That does not make it wrong. Just unconventional and an aggravation to gay activists.

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