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Thread: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

  1. #251
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    No, I don't think it's that easy. The fact a municipal ordinance or state law exists, by itself, does not make what it requires or prohibits lawful. Like every other law in the U.S., it has to comply with the Constitution. A local ordinance that prohibited everyone in that jurisdiction from possessing a firearm, for example, could not be enforced. And the same goes for state public accommodations laws. In the Dale case, the Supreme Court held a New Jersey law that prohibited a chapter of the Boy Scouts from revoking the membership of a homosexual scoutmaster, on the ground that the Boy Scouts were a public accommodation that was discriminating against the scoutmaster because of his sexual orientation, was invalid because it violated the freedom of expressive association guaranteed by the First Amendment.
    I can appreciate that and it would be relevant if the business we're talking about here was one that involved membership, dues, and other conditions of association. You're local bakery or variety store isn't such a business.
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    1) Religious values = criminals. Hmm.
    2.)I guess all religious fundamentalists need to move out of that state then.

    3.). I think what you want to say is that when you open a business you are forced to do business with gays as well as other protected classes.

    4) See #1.
    5) You may see it as a just equal right measure, there is the taint of forced social engineering and domination of value system other than that you that you support. Some freedom that.

    6.)I can just see gangs of LGBT folks hunting down any business where they feel slighted only to bring similar results.
    Stamp out those thoughts and values we disagree with.

    7.)If diversity is such an important thing, why is it that diversity of religious beliefs and other value systems isn't? Just because?
    8.)Frankly, it still make more sense to me the policy business policy 'we reserve the right not to server someone'.
    1.) sorry didnt say that one time LMAO making stuff up and posting lies will only further amplify the failure of your claims
    2.) that would be stupid, being religious doesnt force you to break the law, another fail
    3.) no i would never say something so mentally retard and false since its not true. There is no force to do business with "gays" lol
    4.) i agree never said what your lie claimed i did and there is factually no force
    5.) see another mistake, doesnt matter what "i" see it has anymore than what you see it as. Im simply going by rights, freedoms and or the constitution when they actually apply
    6.) as already proven what you see are very different from facts and reality. Values and thoughts are in no danger, ANother fail
    7.) wtf? lol when did i mention diversity? another failed strawman
    8.) what makes sense to you doesnt matter to rights, law and or the constitution when it applies

    the solution is an easy one, dont break the law and or infringe on peoples rights
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  3. #253
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    Why should I be required to pay for the public school system when I don't use it? We are all part of a single country and we all live with the mores of society and the laws. I hate the concept of government telling private businesses that they cannot refuse to deal with customers with which they do not wish to do business. It is no different than telling consumers they must patronize a particular business.

    As an example, I don't buy Levi Jeans because I don't like the company's politics. That is my preference. Since there are other sources for jeans I'm fine. I can exercise my freedom of choice. If a photographer doesn't want to photograph gay people or any other people, he should have the same freedom of choice. The gay people can give their business to a more sensible photographer. They have the same freedom of choice. I can buy jeans from whom I want and lose nothing in the process. The gay people can find another photographer and probably end up with better photographs made by someone who values their business.

    I'll give you another example. I was fired as a customer and banned by Paypal because they didn't like some of the products I sell on my web sites. I wasn't willing to drop the products but I did drop Paypal as a payment method at their insistence. That wasn't good enough for them. Apparently they wanted to punish me for refusing to bend to their will. I think it was stupid business to close my account because they couldn't regulate what I sell but I viewed it as their right. I don't have a right to use their service and they have no requirement to do business with me. I didn't complain or sue anybody, I just moved on with my life. The gay people should have moved on and found another photographer.

    To me it is beyond the role of government to dictate who businesses or customers people must choose to patronize or accept as a customer. Bringing up nonsense about roads and government services is a pretty empty argument in my view. The photographer pays for these things with taxes just like the gay people.
    Well, all I can say is that we have a differing view of what is a personal, private right and what is a responsibility in a society where licenses are issued to operate a business. I have no problem with whatever freedom of association you care to enforce for yourself on your own time and in your own personal life. However, you do not get to carry that over to determining which clients you'll sell your wares to. You can determine what wares you'll sell or not sell on religious grounds, but you cannot discriminate about who shall be able to buy those wares once you decide what you will sell.
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

  4. #254
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    Why should I be required to pay for the public school system when I don't use it? We are all part of a single country and we all live with the mores of society and the laws. I hate the concept of government telling private businesses that they cannot refuse to deal with customers with which they do not wish to do business. It is no different than telling consumers they must patronize a particular business.
    I think all that makes perfect intellectual sense on a blackboard in a lecture hall at Mises University or wherever, but it imposes a real burden on those who are arbitrarily and unpredictably discriminated against. It's really not a fair assumption that the person discriminated against suffers no harm, or that the owner of a business with a license to serve the public should be permitted to impose that harm on a basis such as race or sexual orientation. The benefits to a peaceful, orderly, business environment and society are just clearly substantial and the burden IMO is very slight.

    I don't know anything about you, but I'm white, male, straight and Christian, and I'm fully aware that this means I will never suffer any kind of real discrimination in this country. So I'm very hesitant to embrace a 'right' to discriminate that I know will (as a general rule) only be used by those like me to harm those not like me. I'm blessing a policy that benefits those with power and imposes a real burden on those without it.

    Furthermore, even for the person on this thread who claims to be in a mixed race marriage and is supportive of the right to discriminate, that's probably not a huge burden in the U.S. in 2015 only because people have been fighting against discrimination, including with some pretty landmark legislation, for many decades and there are only a very few disfavored minorities against which it is legal to discriminate.

    As an example, I don't buy Levi Jeans because I don't like the company's politics. That is my preference. Since there are other sources for jeans I'm fine. I can exercise my freedom of choice. If a photographer doesn't want to photograph gay people or any other people, he should have the same freedom of choice. The gay people can give their business to a more sensible photographer. They have the same freedom of choice. I can buy jeans from whom I want and lose nothing in the process. The gay people can find another photographer and probably end up with better photographs made by someone who values their business.
    I don't see that as equivalent in any way. You actually have a choice - you can buy, or not buy those jeans. There is no possible way you can describe a harm from you making a choice to buy Wranglers versus Levis. You're able to choose to buy any brand of jeans. Anti-discrimination laws allow EVERYONE (as a general rule) to have those exact same choices.

    I'll give you another example. I was fired as a customer and banned by Paypal because they didn't like some of the products I sell on my web sites. I wasn't willing to drop the products but I did drop Paypal as a payment method at their insistence. That wasn't good enough for them. Apparently they wanted to punish me for refusing to bend to their will. I think it was stupid business to close my account because they couldn't regulate what I sell but I viewed it as their right. I don't have a right to use their service and they have no requirement to do business with me. I didn't complain or sue anybody, I just moved on with my life. The gay people should have moved on and found another photographer.
    This kind of discrimination is also just not comparable. They are permitted to have terms of service and they apply those terms to all their customers. The equivalent would be Paypal, and Visa and Mastercard and AMEX denying your business service because you're black or gay or Muslim, and effectively prohibiting you from doing business online. You're saying that kind of discrimination - acts that would deny you the ability to be in business - should be allowed. I disagree.

  5. #255
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) sorry didnt say that one time LMAO making stuff up and posting lies will only further amplify the failure of your claims
    2.) that would be stupid, being religious doesnt force you to break the law, another fail
    3.) no i would never say something so mentally retard and false since its not true. There is no force to do business with "gays" lol
    4.) i agree never said what your lie claimed i did and there is factually no force
    5.) see another mistake, doesnt matter what "i" see it has anymore than what you see it as. Im simply going by rights, freedoms and or the constitution when they actually apply
    6.) as already proven what you see are very different from facts and reality. Values and thoughts are in no danger, ANother fail
    7.) wtf? lol when did i mention diversity? another failed strawman
    8.) what makes sense to you doesnt matter to rights, law and or the constitution when it applies

    the solution is an easy one, dont break the law and or infringe on peoples rights
    3) How can you make that claim? There most certainly is force to do business with protected classes.
    You certainly are NOT allowed to decline to do business with them. So in essence you are forced to do business with them because you can't say 'no'.
    Nancy Pelosi said: “We have to pass it, to find out what’s in it.” A Doctor called to a radio show & said: "That's the definition of a stool sample"
    It's a global Jihad, stupid. Allowing that poison into the country is only going to increase the damage it inflicts on others.

  6. #256
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    That is true. But nothing requires a state public accommodations law to prohibit private businesses from declining to enter into contracts with people because of their sexual orientation. That is up to the state, and I don't know what there is about Indiana's public accommodations law that makes this law--apparently an RFRA--necessary. It's not clear why Indiana could not have accomplished the same thing just by omitting sexual orientation as a prohibited basis for discrimination in public accommodations.
    Bottom line - the BSA case is irrelevant here.
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Pence obviously realizes the GOP bench is too deep this time for a run at VP so he'll just run for governor again--or will he take a shot at retiring Sen. Coat's seat ?
    Chemists Have Solutions .

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    1) How can you make that claim?
    2.) There most certainly is force to do business with protected classes.
    3.) You certainly are NOT allowed to decline to do business with them.
    4.) So in essence you are forced to do business with them because you can't say 'no'.
    1.) because i use something called facts
    2.) no there is factually ZERO force to do business with anybody . . . zero . . . are you claiming that you must do business with EVERYBODY then because everybody is protected . . everybody
    sorry you are wrong but i see where your mistake is, hopefully you see it too
    3.) also false, you most certainly are allowed to decline business with anyone
    4.) in essence you have been proven factually wrong.
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
    Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers - CNN.com



    Wow. WTF Indiana????
    You trying to out-religious the bible-belt states?
    Is Indiana becoming Mississippi2.0 or something?

    This is going to be interesting to watch.
    I'm torn on this issue.

    Aside from breaking existing laws a Government entity shouldn't be allowed to force you to do or not to do something on your private property.

    Being forced to act against your beliefs whether they're considered " hateful " or " bigoted " ( highly subjective ) is crossing the line IMO.

  10. #260
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgasm View Post
    I see. You have nothing but platitudes.

    I am not surprised.
    They shove their lifestyle in the faces of too many Americans and it's coming back to bite their butts. When they were simply an oddity that you knew existed but, it didn't affect your day-to-day then no one hardly noticed or cared. You come out and demand everyone accept you or get sued or thrown in jail and people take offence.
    32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
    Matt. 10:32-33

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