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Thread: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    Neighboring Illinois has a RFRA law. But it also has a statewide law that prohibits discrimination based on gender-identity and sexual-orientation.

    Texas and Missouri have RFRA laws. But they have sections in their RFRA laws that prohibit discrimination based on gender-identity and sexual-orientation.

    Indiana has no such statewide/RFRA protections. Indiana legislators rejected such protections when deliberating the Indiana RFRA law.

    One has to ask ... why?
    I have to ask for more details about your claims. What, exactly, are the sections in the Texas and Missouri RFRA's you claim prohibit that sort of discrimination, and just how do they do it? RFRA's are not anti-discrimination laws.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) what citzens are in danger of that when the constitution and nondiscrimination laws already do that
    2.) no not what ever a person wants but does it in fact offer the possible ablity to illegal discriminating based on feelings and not have it be illegal any more. Yes.

    so again i ask, My rights as a christian are already fully protected by the constitution, anti-discrimination laws and many other things, if i lived in Indiana what would this bill do for me that those things dont already do?

    before the bill i couldnt illegally discriminate and violate the rights of people using gender, race, sexual orientation religion etc etc
    before the bill people couldnt illegally discriminate against me and violate my rights using gender, race, sexual orientation religion etc etc

    after the bill, now the possibility exists
    you couldn't illegally discriminate before, and you can't illegally discriminate after. What you now have is a potential defense for your illegal actions, with a judge being the arbiter. I've yet to see a case in the 30 states that similar laws where someone used RFRA as a defense for practicing discrimination.

    I have seen cases where RFRA was used to prove other laws(not having to do with anti-discrimination) were too burdensome on some religious practices. States were required to make their own RFRA when the Supreme Court ruled that the Federal law didn't apply to States and cities.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) since its written you dont know how im saying, that would be a observation assumed or made up
    2.) i will
    odd you never answered the questions or addressed what i said though

    the best part of that is none of that changes the fact of my original post of the facts presented here

    is there some point you had? is your subjective opinion of such, which you are more than welcome to have, relevant in any way to the topic or does it impact it in anyway?
    No. Not odd. That wasn't the direction I was going with this.
    Disinformation campaign? The Russian collusion meme pushed by the 'news' media, behaving as a political propaganda organ, hell bent to destroy a legitimately elected president to implement his agenda per the votes of the same electorate. Reference The Big Lie Reference Goebbels

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    This law is not comparable to other states that have similar laws.
    Discrimination is discrimination under the guise of Religious rights.
    This analysis from a law professor, skilled in the law, seems to differ from your assessment.

    So the most controversial aspect of the Indiana law was endorsed by the Holder Justice Department. [Update: I should stress that at the time, DOJ limited the applicability of RFRA to “religious organizations,” such as Wheaton College. But following Hobby Lobby this position is no longer tenable.]

    There here we have it. Indiana, as well as Arizona’s RFRAs are very similar to the Federal RFRA. In contrast, Mississippi’s RFRA, which only requires a “burden,” not a “substantial” one, deviates significantly from the federal statute.

    I should stress–and this point was totally lost in the Indiana debate–that RFRA does not provide immunity. It only allows a defendant to raise a defense, which a finder of fact must consider, like any other defense that can be raised under Title VII or the ADA. RFRA is *not* a blank check to discriminate.
    Comparing the Federal RFRA and the Indiana RFRA | Josh Blackman's Blog

    And who is this guy?

    Josh is an Assistant Professor of Law at the South Texas College of Law who specializes in constitutional law, the United States Supreme Court, and the intersection of law and technology. Josh is the author of the critically acclaimed Unprecedented: The Constitutional Challenge to Obamacare.
    Josh was selected by Forbes Magazine for the “30 Under 30″ in Law and Policy.Josh has testified before the House Judiciary Committee on the constitutionality of executive action on immigration. Josh is the founder and President of the Harlan Institute, the founder of FantasySCOTUS, the Internet’s Premier Supreme Court Fantasy League, and blogs at JoshBlackman.com. Josh leads the cutting edge of legal analytics as Director of Judicial Research at LexPredict. Josh is the author of over two dozen law review articles, and his commentary has appeared in The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, USA Today, L.A. Times, and other national publications.
    Josh clerked for the Honorable Danny J. Boggs on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit and for the Honorable Kim R. Gibson on the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Pennsylvania.
    Josh is a graduate of the George Mason University School of Law.
    About Josh | Josh Blackman's Blog

    Between what you say and what Josh here says, thanks, but I'll go with Josh.
    Disinformation campaign? The Russian collusion meme pushed by the 'news' media, behaving as a political propaganda organ, hell bent to destroy a legitimately elected president to implement his agenda per the votes of the same electorate. Reference The Big Lie Reference Goebbels

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Samhain View Post
    1.)you couldn't illegally discriminate before, and you can't illegally discriminate after.
    2.) What you now have is a potential defense for your illegal actions, with a judge being the arbiter.
    3.) I've yet to see a case in the 30 states that similar laws where someone used RFRA as a defense for practicing discrimination.
    4.) I have seen cases where RFRA was used to prove other laws(not having to do with anti-discrimination) were too burdensome on some religious practices. States were required to make their own RFRA when the Supreme Court ruled that the Federal law didn't apply to States and cities.
    1.) false what was considered illegal discrimination before, now in some case may no longer be based on feelings
    2.) already had this before . . but again what used to be illegal discrimination maybe be found to be legal based on my feelings
    3.) well they arent all alike and that would be your opinion
    4.) which could have been done before also but without the reference to this

    so again im still left wondering (based on the context of my conversation with another poster)
    My rights as a christian are already fully protected by the constitution, anti-discrimination laws and many other things, if i lived in Indiana what would this bill do for me that those things dont already do?

    and

    before the bill i couldnt illegally discriminate and violate the rights of people using gender, race, sexual orientation religion etc etc
    before the bill people couldnt illegally discriminate against me and violate my rights using gender, race, sexual orientation religion etc etc

    after the bill, now the possibility exists that it will not be found illegal based on feelings
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    No. Not odd. That wasn't the direction I was going with this.
    your dodge is noted
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) false what was considered illegal discrimination before, now in some case may no longer be based on feelings
    2.) already had this before . . but again what used to be illegal discrimination maybe be found to be legal based on my feelings
    3.) well they arent all alike and that would be your opinion
    4.) which could have been done before also but without the reference to this

    so again im still left wondering (based on the context of my conversation with another poster)
    My rights as a christian are already fully protected by the constitution, anti-discrimination laws and many other things, if i lived in Indiana what would this bill do for me that those things dont already do?

    and

    before the bill i couldnt illegally discriminate and violate the rights of people using gender, race, sexual orientation religion etc etc
    before the bill people couldnt illegally discriminate against me and violate my rights using gender, race, sexual orientation religion etc etc

    after the bill, now the possibility exists that it will not be found illegal based on feelings
    False, that's not how the law works. And like I stated before, feel free to post any case where RFRA was used as a successful defense in practicing discrimination on any grounds. I'll not hold my breathe.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    your dodge is noted
    No. Not a dodge. A refusal to pursue that line of discussion. it wasn't what I wanted to talk about. That's not a dodge.
    Disinformation campaign? The Russian collusion meme pushed by the 'news' media, behaving as a political propaganda organ, hell bent to destroy a legitimately elected president to implement his agenda per the votes of the same electorate. Reference The Big Lie Reference Goebbels

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    It was that wretched Hobby Lobby decision was Indiana's guiding force in feeling it was A-Otay to discriminate against people.

    Ginsburg was right when she said it would create havoc -- giving the green light for states to write RFRA's like this.

    "The court, I fear, has ventured into a minefield." she said

    Also, too: "Although the Court attempts to cabin its language to closely held corporations, its logic extends to corporations of any size, public or private. Little doubt that RFRA claims will proliferate." -Ginsburg

    Bingo, she hit it on the head.

    The HL decision specifically dealt with "closely held corporations."

    This Indiana law? Nope. Even major Corps, not in any way "closely held" are included.

    Maybe some are beginning to understand why so many people / companies / even cities and now even an entire state (Conn., for example) ( banning travel to Indiana for its state / city employees) have a problem with this law.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    No. Not a dodge. A refusal to pursue that line of discussion. it wasn't what I wanted to talk about. That's not a dodge.
    by definition it is
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