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Thread: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

  1. #1651
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Your preferences don't matter. Not everyone is like you. The supporters of the Indiana law are proud to have opinions 180 degrees different than you. It's they, the proudly anti-SSM/gay evangelicals, the LGBT is worried about, not socially liberal libertarian types.

    Should it be legal for an employer to have a DADT employment policy? It's a simple question.

    And what you have to recognize is you may disagree with the anti-SSM/gay crowd, but you're supporting policies they support for the purpose of discriminating against LBGT - that's what they tell us their goal is.
    My preferences matter to me. And you're asking me a legal question about what a business should have - I'm not a lawyer. I know next to nothing about DADT and what's in it.

    But one more time - people can and do get let go from their jobs all the time. I don't know that being let go because you're gay is any more upsetting than being let go because your boss likes Mary or Henry better than you.

    Like I said, I support the LGBT advancing their cause just as I do about supporting people advancing any cause that's important to them. We all have causes that are dear to us.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by SlevinKelevra View Post
    nope, just asking if

    1) you're a sinner
    2) you grant equal weight to all parts of your scripture

    Not my fault you don't understand how it works.
    32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Really? Unless you are clairvoyant, you have no idea where I borrowed it from. I do not even know what that group is, although from your description I would guess it is made up of statist drones.
    Actually, it's made up of ignorant and bigoted conservative morons. They "coined" the term in the late 70's/early 80's by creating lies around what THEY claimed the homosexual agenda was.

    I saw the phrase in Justice Scalia's dissenting opinion in Lawrence v. Texas, as I recall. He was specifically talking about several members of the Court that he believed had signed onto the homosexual agenda, and I think he is exactly right about that. And Justice Kennedy seems to have signed on very enthusiastically.
    Scalia didn't know what he was talking about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  4. #1654
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    You left out Section 9:

    "Sec. 9. A person whose exercise of religion has been
    substantiallyburdened, or islikely tobe substantiallyburdened,by
    a violation of this chapter may assert the violation or impending
    violation as a claim or defense in a judicial or administrative
    proceeding, regardless of whether the state or any other
    governmental entity is a party to the proceeding."


    This provides that religious beliefs (as defined earlier) are a valid defense in claims between two persons (which also previously defined includes business entities). In plan English that means if a Muslim cab driver refused service to a blind person because they have a service dog (and yes that has happened, Minnesota Cab Driver case) , the owner can claim a religious objection to Jews and under this law it is a legal defense.


    https://iga.in.gov/static-documents/...01.05.ENRS.pdf

    >>>>
    You shouldn't read too much into that. Simply having a legal defense does not a winner make. It never has been that way. The best way to understand this is to look at civil law. There are a myriad of legal defenses for almost any accusation, but you must still win by a showing of a preponderance of the evidence. Not the same burden as beyond all reasonable doubt, and in this sense, winning a civil battle is significantly easier than winning a criminal complaint against you. So, as an example and in keeping with the context on this issue, I'm a bakery and told my gay customer I couldn't in all conscience serve him and that he should go down the road to get his cake made. He gets all butt hurt and decides to sue me. All the gay guy has to do is file a petition, there is no prosecutorial discretion of anything. The county clerk just takes your complaint, files it, sends you a verified complaint and it is up to the gay guy to serve the bakery. He serves the bakery and the bakery has between 20/30 days to answer. It is in the answer where the bakery owner answers to each and every allegation made by the gay guy. He can answer in several ways. That he admits to the allegation, that he denies the allegation, or that there isn't enough information to form a belief on the allegation. After the answer, the bakery owner would submit supporting papers in the form of an affidavit (Which provides more details and defenses of allegations admitted to), and a memorandum of law.

    In this case, the memorandum of law would be the Indiana law. And in his answer and supporting affidavit, any allegations admitted to, would add details such as he could not serve the gay guy because of X, Y, and Z.. It is then up to a judge and or jury to find bakery owner guilty, or not guilty. The burden however, shifts frequently in civil matters, and unlike criminal proceedings where the prosecution must prove its case, in civil matters, each party that makes a prima facie showing will shift the burden on the opposing party until at some point, a jury or a judge will side with one of the parties to the suit.

    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    No hyperbole about it. Every one of my questions was serious. Nothing is stopping anyone who thinks it's right to rent to homosexuals from doing just that. The more relevant question is whether people who do not want to rent to them in buildings with only a few units, where freedom of association and the right to privacy come into play, can be forced to do it by law.

    Apartments and other rental housing are not usually considered public accommodations. But these same issues have been raised by state public accommodations laws. And it is those laws that the RFRA which is the topic of this thread apparently was meant to create a religious-belief exception to.

    RFRA's are meant to protect the right to free exercise, which is one more part of the First Amendment, along with the freedoms of speech and association, that public accommodations laws which make sexual preference a protected category may run up against.

    Maybe someone else will want to give some thought to the questions I posed.
    No, all your questions were hyperbolic and didn't actually address what you were responding to. YOU created the argument that Grim was making because his actual argument didn't seem to suit you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    My preferences matter to me. And you're asking me a legal question about what a business should have - I'm not a lawyer. I know next to nothing about DADT and what's in it.
    Above you said this discussion was about more than than what the law is, and includes what we think the law should be. Should it be legal for a private business to have a DADT type policy. They will hire you if you're in the closet, and will fire you if they find out you're gay, for no reason other than you're gay.

    But one more time - people can and do get let go from their jobs all the time. I don't know that being let go because you're gay is any more upsetting than being let go because your boss likes Mary or Henry better than you.
    Goodness, I really cannot figure out why you often go to great lengths to avoid the point than address it and have an honest debate.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No, all your questions were hyperbolic and didn't actually address what you were responding to. YOU created the argument that Grim was making because his actual argument didn't seem to suit you.
    matches points were very clear to us who are up to speed with the macro issues of this ...

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    That isn't what this is about and you should really be able to see thru a politician's lies and that of the FRC, who stood behind the governor as signed the law. Try reading the bill for one. It's impossibly broad. All it says is "burdens religious beliefs." That can be freaking anything, including medical treatment, and it's leaving the courts to act as mind readers in a case by case basis.

    This is about hatred of LGBT, period. The only diff is they aren't able to be *quite* as transparent about it as those very same pulpits were in the past

    "SB 101 will help protect individuals, Christian businesses and churches from those supporting homosexual marriages and those supporting government recognition and approval of gender identity (male cross-dressers)."

    Notice no mention of protection for other religions or of other targeted groups. I guess you must be a fan of repealing the civil rights act too. I mean at least then you're consistent

    Oh and it clearly violates "equal protection" and roper v evans, public accommodation laws, as well as anti discrimination laws in 12 counties

    If nothing else, i hope this circus and massive disinvestment dissuades other states from attempting the same
    I don't disagree with you. The law is a smokescreen for attacks on the LGBT community. If it wasn't, it's broadness would address other groups, such as atheists for example. The actual legal intent of such a law, however, is not really problematic, and people can choose to associate with whomever they want. I support businesses having the right to choose who they will serve for whatever reason. I also support free speech and freedom of the press, and I would encourage people to take out full page ads in newspapers identifying businesses who choose not to serve certain groups of people.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Travis007 View Post
    matches points were very clear to us who are up to speed with the macro issues of this ...
    His points were completely irrelevant to the post of which he was responding, and misrepresented Grim's position.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    Being elected does not mean they are better judges, in fact I think they are possibly even (or should I say most likely) better than chosen judges because they do not have to pander to the special interests and the people who bankroll their elections. Judges should not be elected IMHO, they should uphold the law, not be in the pockets of the biggest political sponsors or political parties. Judges need to be totally independent.
    In this country, they are not beyond political and monetary influence. If they can't be recalled or.fired they are susceptible.
    32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
    Matt. 10:32-33

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