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Thread: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    No idea. But what does that have to do with anything? The laws says you can't discriminate based on religious beliefs, either. Are you born a Muslim?
    not quite, but people get indoctrinated into religion from birth so it's not much of a choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Well, certainly the customer is not an N-word.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    good question
    yeah i dont see how that example is analogous, skinhead is not a gender, religion, sex etc
    also just on a side note i wonder how the owner know they are skinheads?
    It's analogous because he said that skinheads have to be served by a black man in a restaurant. And let's say for the sake of argument that they said they were skinheads. It doesn't have anything to do with the debate.

    I'll ask you the question. The argument keeps coming up that public accommodation means you have to serve everyone who wants to be served. Do you believe everyone who walks into your business or asks you to engage in commerce with them must be served by you? General question.
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    1.)maybe the nazi neck tattoo. and the shaved head.

    either way, the example is not analogous.
    agreed
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    It's analogous because he said that skinheads have to be served by a black man in a restaurant. And let's say for the sake of argument that they said they were skinheads. It doesn't have anything to do with the debate.

    I'll ask you the question. The argument keeps coming up that public accommodation means you have to serve everyone who wants to be served. Do you believe everyone who walks into your business or asks you to engage in commerce with them must be served by you? General question.
    Hang on I've missed something. Where did it come up that a business can't refuse service for any reason?

    This is exactly the straw man I'm talking about. Literally everyone is arguing that yes, actually, businesses can refuse service to customers. Just not for a few very specific reasons.
    Last edited by Deuce; 03-30-15 at 10:43 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Well, certainly the customer is not an N-word.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You know her?

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    So you support the idea of skinhead forcing a black woman to cater their party, even though she doesn't want to.
    Yes, and the reason is simple enough. If there is a presumption that a person can pick and choose who to serve, hire, fire, rent to, etc. they we've agreed that there simply is no right to be treated equally in the marketplace and this principle applies to matters small and large. It would apply to a gay/Jewish/black/Muslim business getting frozen out by local suppliers to run it out of business and to keep the local business community pure. It should apply to medical services, pharmacies, selling houses (why shouldn't a neighborhood be able to exclude anyone not a WASP?). If you're OK exempting caterers, on what principle will you force ANYONE

    If we want to define things like catering or photography as creative exercises and exempt them from public accommodation non-discrimination laws, I wouldn't support it but it's possibly a decent compromise. Much more important would be examples where the harm from discrimination isn't trivial or can be dismissed as trivial, such as catering and wedding cakes.

    After 12 years my son could get fired because his company downsizes, or he has a new boss who hates him, or because he smells bad, or because his services are no longer needed. People lose their jobs all the time for no particular reason.
    But you didn't address the actual issue. If the boss doesn't like fags and fires him for no reason other than he's gay, you're OK with that? You'd be OK with him having to find a girlfriend to invite to the Christmas party because he can't let anyone know he's gay with a partner he's been with for a decade. Can't be seen in places where coworkers are likely to appear with his partner, a public life that is a front, a lie, and a private life, etc. I somehow doubt it.

    And if you are, I'm very happy the country is quickly moving to where that kind of opinion is literally dying out and will all but disappear when the current generation of young people come of age.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    1.)It's analogous because he said that skinheads have to be served by a black man in a restaurant.
    2.)And let's say for the sake of argument that they said they were skinheads. It doesn't have anything to do with the debate.
    3.)I'll ask you the question. The argument keeps coming up that public accommodation means you have to serve everyone who wants to be served.
    4.) Do you believe everyone who walks into your business or asks you to engage in commerce with them must be served by you? General question.
    1.) they dont HAVE to be served by law but they could be, in that case its VERY circumstantial but its still not analogous to gender, race etc
    2.) I agree your example doesnt have anythign to do with the debate
    3.) I havent seen that argument one time the way you word, could you link all these cases it was stated that way? also that is not what public accommodation means so if anybody said that they were simply mistaken
    4.) of course not and neither does the law or rights
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    They should have the option under scenario #2 to decline the offer of doing business with the couple. If you know someone hates you and/or your lifestyle, and it makes you uncomfortable dealing with them, you should have the right to walk away from the offer. That's why I think the law need to be updated or made right. In both cases I support the right of the business owner to not be forced into commerce.

    Public Accommodation laws as a matter of course should be repealed, not special exemptions given for just religious claims. PA laws should only apply (IMHO) to government entities and possibly life-saving medical treatment (not elective procedures).


    I'd be open to a compromise though. Make it a function of getting a business license for the business to predominately display in site, in advertisements, and on their web page a "Willingness to Serve" statement that must be in-place from the time the business opens. Businesses would be able to reserve the right to refuse customers based on any criteria they choose but must information the public in advance. Such notifications would remain on file with the governments copy of the business license and would be available (just as license information is) to members of the public. A business could amend or replace their "Willingness to Serve" notification at any time, based on a minimum of 30 days having elapsed between the old certificate and the new one filed and it's being effective. Businesses then under Public Accommodation laws would only be accountable for refusing service if they didn't comply with their own Willingness to Serve certificate.



    >>>>

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    No idea. But what does that have to do with anything? The laws says you can't discriminate based on religious beliefs, either. Are you born a Muslim?
    it matters because being gay is analogous to being a racial minority, not being a nazi ****.

    please tell me that you don't actually support letting a restaurant owner kick out gay people for being gay. what if your kid was gay?

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    It's analogous because he said that skinheads have to be served by a black man in a restaurant. And let's say for the sake of argument that they said they were skinheads. It doesn't have anything to do with the debate.

    I'll ask you the question. The argument keeps coming up that public accommodation means you have to serve everyone who wants to be served. Do you believe everyone who walks into your business or asks you to engage in commerce with them must be served by you? General question.
    Can't tell if you're trying to play with words. No business is forced to serve everyone, but they have to apply whatever standards they use on a consistent basis. So a bar can refuse the drunk and disorderly, but can't refuse service to a black person who is neither. Etc.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Yes, and the reason is simple enough. If there is a presumption that a person can pick and choose who to serve, hire, fire, rent to, etc. they we've agreed that there simply is no right to be treated equally in the marketplace and this principle applies to matters small and large. It would apply to a gay/Jewish/black/Muslim business getting frozen out by local suppliers to run it out of business and to keep the local business community pure. It should apply to medical services, pharmacies, selling houses (why shouldn't a neighborhood be able to exclude anyone not a WASP?). If you're OK exempting caterers, on what principle will you force ANYONE

    If we want to define things like catering or photography as creative exercises and exempt them from public accommodation non-discrimination laws, I wouldn't support it but it's possibly a decent compromise. Much more important would be examples where the harm from discrimination isn't trivial or can be dismissed as trivial, such as catering and wedding cakes.



    But you didn't address the actual issue. If the boss doesn't like fags and fires him for no reason other than he's gay, you're OK with that? You'd be OK with him having to find a girlfriend to invite to the Christmas party because he can't let anyone know he's gay with a partner he's been with for a decade. Can't be seen in places where coworkers are likely to appear with his partner, a public life that is a front, a lie, and a private life, etc. I somehow doubt it.

    And if you are, I'm very happy the country is quickly moving to where that kind of opinion is literally dying out and will all but disappear when the current generation of young people come of age.
    Jasper - I don't use the "f" word to describe gay people.

    And if my son got fired from his job after 12 years for any reason, I would be upset. He can get fired because his boss doesn't like his girlfriend. Or his boyfriend. Or his beard, or his blue eyes, or his large rear end.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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