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Thread: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    Pence did not answer directly when asked six times on This Week with George Stephanopoulos whether under the law it would be legal for a merchant to refuse to serve gay customers.
    Right, because the bill makes no mention of gays. It's a hypothetical that can only be answered by the merchant and his sincerely held religious beliefs. The law doesn't deal with the merchant, it deals with how governmental institutions react to the merchant. He can't be persecuted for applying his sincerely held religious beliefs in his daily life, in and out of his business.
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    so you think refusing gay service at a bakery is bad and NOT with in reason
    but refusing a wedding cake to gays (even though they give it to everybody else including other religions or non religious weddings which is completely hypocritical) is ok and with in reason of religious freedom

    id like to know whats that is based on?
    I already made it clear exactly what it was based on.

    People of faith believe that certain actions are forbidden, or what Christians would label a sin. I'm not a Christian or a religious person, but most people of faith are also taught (I'm paraphrasing here, ) to hate the sin, not the sinner. Another way of looking at that is, even though you don't approve religiously of what a persons chooses to do, it's God's job to pass judgment upon them, not yours.

    Refusing to serve gay people is passing judgment on homosexuals, which in my view is wrong. Selling a gay person a doughnut is not participating in, or endorsing a homosexual lifestyle. However, a baker who views gay marriage as a sin and sees it as an affront to his or her religious beliefs, should not be forced to be a contributor, paid or otherwise, to a ceremony that they believe to be sacrilegious.



    That is condemning the sin (gay marraige) as opposed to condemning the sinner (a gay person).


    also what if the person owns apartments instead?
    Refusing to rent an apartment to someone who is gay, is wrong for the same reasons as I stated in the example above. Providing shelter to a gay person isn't an endorsement of their lifestyle or participating in something that is sacrilegious. Now if a gay person said I would like to rent this apartment to host gay sex parties, they deserve to be refused for being such a total moron.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgasm View Post
    Way to show that you don't have a very good understanding of the issue.

    Are you familiar with public accommodation laws?
    Yes and there is absolutely no relevance to our discussion as gays are not a protected class nationally

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dovkan View Post
    And you have a bias in support of religion, see how this works out? I agree, best not to discuss it.
    You are wrong about the religious bias, but right about ending the discussion.

    For the record, I'm not a Christian, nor am I a religious person... You've mistaken my pro-constitution bias for a defense of religion.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    You are wrong about the religious bias, but right about ending the discussion.

    For the record, I'm not a Christian, nor am I a religious person... You've mistaken my pro-constitution bias for a defense of religion.
    Pro constitution bias
    We're divided then.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    1.)I already made it clear exactly what it was based on.
    2.)People of faith believe that certain actions are forbidden, or what Christians would label a sin. I'm not a Christian or a religious person, but most people of faith are also taught (I'm paraphrasing here, ) to hate the sin, not the sinner. Another way of looking at that is, even though you don't approve religiously of what a persons chooses to do, it's God's job to pass judgment upon them, not yours.
    3.)Refusing to serve gay people is passing judgment on homosexuals, which in my view is wrong.
    4.) Selling a gay person a doughnut is not participating in, or endorsing a homosexual lifestyle.
    5.) However, a baker who views gay marriage as a sin and sees it as an affront to his or her religious beliefs, should not be forced to be a contributor, paid or otherwise, to a ceremony that they believe to be sacrilegious.
    6.)That is condemning the sin (gay marraige) as opposed to condemning the sinner (a gay person).
    7,)Refusing to rent an apartment to someone who is gay, is wrong for the same reasons as I stated in the example above. Providing shelter to a gay person isn't an endorsement of their lifestyle or participating in something that is sacrilegious.
    8.) Now if a gay person said I would like to rent this apartment to host gay sex parties, they deserve to be refused for being such a total moron.
    1.) no you didnt . . i find the separation totally arbitrary and its bases illogical and or dishonest with some
    2.) yes and some of these people are just makign it up. If its god jobs then let god do it
    3.) yes it is
    4.) nor its not, nor is selling them a cake
    5.) they arent forced
    6.) just like serving blacks at the back door, still serving them just not with the whites . . . its crap . . fact remains if the people in the wedding werent gay then they would get served, its still the gay person being denied a service, not ALL service but some serve. Its like hiring women but not making allowing them to be bosses, its disgusting..
    7.) geez and what if its a gay couple, wouldnt the same weak argument about the cake for the wedding hold up based on that false logic? are you claiming that providing the cake is worse than providing the living faclitiies?
    why?
    8.) this is just stupid . . .gay sex parties are ZERO reason to be refused unless some other rules are being violated . . . .
    people in apartment have parties all the time, unless the party is illegal or breaks other rules like noise, capacity limits etc the type of party doesnt matter
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Indiana Governor: This Is the Same Religious Freedom Law Obama Voted for in Illinois
    Speaking of Pence, this quote was hilarious:

    "I just can't account for the hostility that's been directed at our state," he said. "I've been taken aback by the mischaracterizations from outside the state of Indiana about what is in this bill."
    LMMFAO. The mischaracterizations are coming from supporters of the bill he invited to the private signing...

    From his orgs website: Advance America Blog Archive Help Protect Religious Freedom In Indiana!

    SB 101 will help protect individuals, Christian businesses and churches from those supporting homosexual marriages and those supporting government recognition and approval of gender identity (male cross-dressers).
    Who said this was about teh gay???!!!! Only the people invited to the signing!

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    Right, because the bill makes no mention of gays. It's a hypothetical that can only be answered by the merchant and his sincerely held religious beliefs. The law doesn't deal with the merchant, it deals with how governmental institutions react to the merchant. He can't be persecuted for applying his sincerely held religious beliefs in his daily life, in and out of his business.
    If that's actually true then it's a license to discriminate. Anyone with half a brain can justify any discrimination in religion - people did it with slavery. The Mormons used to believe goodness was related to being white, etc. And the courts can't judge whether your religious belief is "sincere" or not. The bill itself helpfully points out that the objection doesn't have to be related to a central tenet of any religion. So if your pastor says it, and it's #198 on #199 of sins, discriminate away.

    What's funny is Pence is trying to go on national TV and tell the world you're wrong, but in front of religious audiences agree with you.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    It does say the government can not prohibit the exercise of religion. Telling wedding chapples, wedding cake makers and etc that they have to perform a gay wedding, make a gay wedding cake and ect is a violation of their 1st amendment right to exercise their religion.
    wat>?

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    5.) they arent forced
    They have been threatened with financial penalty and hardship through legal channels if they do not comply... You can call that what you want, but it doesn't change what it is.


    6.) just like serving blacks at the back door, still serving them just not with the whites . . . its crap . . fact remains if the people in the wedding werent gay then they would get served, its still the gay person being denied a service, not ALL service but some serve. Its like hiring women but not making allowing them to be bosses, its disgusting..
    Where did you come up with that? That does not apply in any way to what I said.

    If a gay person orders a wedding cake and does not specify it's for a gay wedding, then if the baker refuses, that in my view is discrimination, not a religious objection.

    7.) geez and what if its a gay couple, wouldnt the same weak argument about the cake for the wedding hold up based on that false logic? are you claiming that providing the cake is worse than providing the living faclitiies?
    why?
    I just don't see that as the same. Denying people an apartment because you disagree with their lifestyle or because you object to how they might conduct themselves behind closed doors, isn't a justification to refuse to rent to them. I realize that there are some grey areas with this, but I just try and judge this situation considering both sides and doing what is right.

    Your question brings to mind a similar debate I've seen discussed in the past, that is far tougher than this one... It's whether the manager of a family oriented apartment complex, where children of all ages live and are given a resonably secure environment to engage in outdoor activities, is within his rights to refuse to rent to a preditor who was convicted of multiple counts of child molestation several years ago and served his time.



    8.) this is just stupid . . .gay sex parties are ZERO reason to be refused unless some other rules are being violated . . . .
    people in apartment have parties all the time, unless the party is illegal or breaks other rules like noise, capacity limits etc the type of party doesnt matter
    Geez... lighten up... My point was, that if someone is so arrogant that they get in peoples faces with their lifestyle, which they know will be seen as objectionable and offensive to a significant percentage of our society, and basically challenge them to look sideways, then they deserve to be tossed to the curb.

    What I'm saying here is, tolerance is a 2 way street. if you show respect for people and treat them the way you would want to be treated, you'll find that tolerance will win the day, and quite often even over valid religious objections.

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