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Thread: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Who are you talking about exactly? Go to the yellow pages website and go through the pages of bakeries in Alaska. There is no doubt there is an absolute **** ton of bakeries in Alaska.
    that isn't what I claimed.


    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTrumps View Post
    ok. so if there is a clause in the indiana law that if you are the ONLY bakery in 500 miles you can't descriminate, would you be ok with the law then?
    nope, but I'm glad you're realizing that for some (actually many people), whether it be gay, black, female, whatever, that "finding an alternative" to a discriminatory vendor may not be as easy as it sounds on paper.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by SlevinKelevra View Post
    that isn't what I claimed.
    No, you're still going on about the guy in the middle of effing no where with nothing around him. It's just another way to make the well in the middle of the desert argument.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    'We're not going to change this law'

    Indiana Gov. Mike Pence says it wasn't a mistake to enact a measure that has garnered widespread criticism. 'Not about discrimination' »
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by maxparrish View Post
    This citation confirms (unintentionally) my prior points - that the Indiana law is substantively like other RFRA's, including that of the federal government AND that the opposition is being hysterical and intolerant. The author, Matt Anderson, is an acknowledged supporter of gay marriage AND opponent of RFRA, but he claims he opposes it because it is "so vague and just a poorly written law", and makes the ludicrous claim that it does not even resemble its federal counterpart.

    He makes these claims on the basis of what he says is "a quick scan" of another summary of other laws and cases provided by another website. Let's look at his Evelyn Wood trained reading skills:

    First, if you review his source links it is true that Indiana has not (literally) copied word for word the federal legislation or (literally copied) those passed by other states". In fact NO STATE is a literal copy of each other or the federal RFRA. Texas is worded a little differently than New Mexico, New Mexico a little differently from Indiana, and Indiana a little differently than South Carolina. BUT all RFRA states and the federal RFRA convey a(n) (inadequate) protection the same religious protection, and the same legal requirements of a "compelling State interest", which is what the federal law requires.

    So while Mr. Anderson anguishes over "the lack of any restrictive language" and in the failure of Indiana law to define "religion" (which he says invites a broad meaning) he is oblivious to the fact that other states don't define "religion" and most do not HAVE a clause that bothers to restrict the meaning of "religious exercise". But for three or four other States, almost everyone else either leaves meanings wide open to expansive readings OR vaguely say that the terms should mean whatever their particular State Constitution must mean by "the exercise of religion" and the US Constitution (see, for example Arkansas, Oklahoma, etc.). In fact 11 States of the 31 states with RFRA like protections in case law just leave it up to their own particular court case law history to figure it out. HOW much more open to expansive meaning can one get?

    Finally, his third complaint is that "any action...may fall under the 'exercise of religion' (and) may or not be compelled by, or central to, a system of religious belief.' In other words, even if the belief is at the fringe of what a religion may or may not hold true, it falls under this definition of exercising one’s religion."

    But contrary to his complaint, the few states that do explicitly define religious exercise do so very much like Indiana. For example:

    Indiana: Section 5, which reads: “As used in this chapter, ‘exercise of religion’ includes any exercise of religion, whether or not compelled by, or central to, a system of religious belief.” (Emphasis added.)

    Arizona: "Exercise of religion" means the ability to act or refusal to act in a manner substantially motivated by a religious belief, whether or not the exercise is compulsory or central to a larger system of religious belief"

    New Mexico: "A. "free exercise of religion" means an act or a refusal to act that is substantially motivated by religious belief whether or not the religious exercise is compulsory or central to a larger system of religious belief;..."

    Texas: "(a) In this chapter: (1) "Free exercise of religion" means an act or refusal to act that is substantially motivated by sincere religious belief. In determining whether an act or refusal to act is substantially motivated by sincere religious belief under this chapter, it is not necessary to determine that
    the act or refusal to act is motivated by a central part or central requirement of the person's sincere religious belief."

    While I would welcome a law that truly defends religious (and other) liberties from oppression by "anti-discrimination" laws, this one really ain't it. But at least the pedantic hysterical opposition conveys just how intolerant they are to even a tiny wisp of religious liberty by a lone baker - that itself is instructive.

    .
    how does one determine that someone's religious belief is sincere ?

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    No, you're still going on about the guy in the middle of effing no where with nothing around him. It's just another way to make the well in the middle of the desert argument.

    it's a legitimate question to ask when it is claimed that people always have alternatives

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    The Federal RFRA is less than a page long. Indiana's is several pages long.

    Obviously, they're not the same.
    Sorry, if you read it along with related federal case law, the federal RFRA is substantively the same, nearly identical in scope and meaning. No one is claiming the wording is exactly the same, but that the meaning nearly is.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    'We're not going to change this law'

    Indiana Gov. Mike Pence says it wasn't a mistake to enact a measure that has garnered widespread criticism. 'Not about discrimination' »

    I wonder why Pence is now saying that he will push for "clarification" of just what is supported and made legal in the Religious Freedom Bill
    Gov. Mike Pence to push for clarification of 'religious freedom' law
    Gov. Mike Pence, scorched by a fast-spreading political firestorm, told The Star on Saturday that he will support the introduction of legislation to "clarify" that Indiana's controversial Religious Freedom Restoration Act does not promote discrimination against gays and lesbians.

    "I support religious liberty, and I support this law," Pence said in an exclusive interview. "But we are in discussions with legislative leaders this weekend to see if there's a way to clarify the intent of the law."
    <snip>
    Amid the deepest crisis of his political career, Pence said repeatedly that the intense blowback against the new law is the result of a "misunderstanding driven by misinformation."

    He adamantly insisted that RFRA will not open the door to state-sanctioned discrimination against gays and lesbians. But he did acknowledge that Indiana's image — and potentially its economic health — has been hurt badly by the controversy.

    Money always talks to politicians, even when it upsets certain constituents.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    I wonder why Pence is now saying that he will push for "clarification" of just what is supported and made legal in the Religious Freedom Bill



    Money always talks to politicians, even when it upsets certain constituents.
    I think he was surprised by the dishonesty of RFRA's critics and the gullibility of those who reported the story.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    where in the bible does it say I have to open a store and then violate the rights of other Americans?
    Where in the bible does it say you have to sell to everybody even if it violates your conscience?
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by maxparrish View Post
    Sorry, if you read it along with related federal case law, the federal RFRA is substantively the same, nearly identical in scope and meaning. No one is claiming the wording is exactly the same, but that the meaning nearly is.
    There are several pages of differences. None of Indiana's law is the same as the federal RFRA
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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