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Thread: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

  1. #1251
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    I have read them and I do not agree that they are irrelevant. Neither is Barnette, or Wooley, or Pruneyard Shopping Center. The law review article I cited also mentions most or all of these. This comment by the Court in Dale goes right to the heart of the problem with overly broad state public accommodations laws:


    State public accommodations laws were originally enacted to prevent discrimination in traditional places of public accommodation -- like inns and trains....In this case, the New Jersey Supreme Court went a step further and applied its public accommodations law to a private entity without even attempting to tie the term "place" to a physical location. As the definition of "public accommodation" has expanded from clearly commercial entities, such as restaurants, bars, and hotels, to membership organizations such as the Boy Scouts, the potential for conflict between state public accommodations laws and the First Amendment rights of organizations has increased.



    In her concurring opinion in the Jaycees case, Justice O'Connor distinguished between commercial associations, which enjoy only minimal First Amendment protection, and expressive associations, which are much more strongly protected. But she did not provide any standard by which to determine which category a particular association falls into. That is the problem. When so many kinds of things are made public accommodations by state laws, there is no way to know if any particular one is mainly an expressive association, or a commercial one. That is what I was getting at in the hypotheticals about architects and photographers--some enterprises and organizations have some features of a commercial business, but also heavily involve the expression or celebration of ideas of some type.

    More than one First Amendment freedom is implicated by these state public accommodations laws, and they overlap somewhat. There is this question of the freedom of association. There is also a question of the freedom of speech, which involves both expressive speech and the freedom from being compelled by law to express views you do not agree with. The smaller the group, club, "business," etc. that a state law defines as a public accommodation, and the more expressive and less commercial its activities, the more likely that law is to run afoul of the First Amendment.

    Another constitutional right, the implied right to personal privacy, may also be implicated by these laws. The Court in the Jaycees case identified the fourteenth amendment's due process clause--where the Court in some cases (including Roe v. Wade) has seemed to locate this privacy right--as another source of associational freedom. This right was also mentioned briefly in the concurring opinion in Prune Yard Shopping Center as a possible basis for a shopkeeper to object to his property being used to promote messages he did not agree with.

    It's not clear to me how a state RFRA (which involves still another First Amendment right, the right to free exercise of religion) would interact with public accommodations laws. The Court discussed its free exercise decisions involving shops--one a kosher butcher, as I recall--in the Hobby Lobby decision.
    My post referred to the cases you mentioned and not to the article you posted nor to the entire history of PA laws. While it is true that the definition of PA's has expanded, and that new and poorly defined legal categories will lead to litigation, this law is not directed at expressive organizations which already are protected (to some unclear extent). The question of where we draw the line between expressive orgs and purely commercial ones is an interesting question (as your examples show) but it is an irrelevant question for this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by maxparrish View Post
    He can call himself a lavender elephant if he wishes, but it does not change my original notation of what policy positions he presently supports. Very little of what he currently supports is "conservative", the majority being liberal-libertarian. He wrote about and supported gay marriage LONG before it was fashionable, condemns Israel, criticizes Obama's failure to deal with torture, and strongly advocates Obamacare. Tell me how those are iconic "conservative" policy opinions?

    Your opinion on the state Sullivan's politics is horribly dated. Read his Daily Dish, in the last seven to ten years he has moved on.
    He believes in small govt, low taxes, etc and gay marriage is a conservative position as is criticism of Israel, and torture. It's just not the position of wingnuts.

    And the Daily Dish is considered a conservative blog
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Indiana's RFRA law is different and much broader then the Federal version or other states versions. Sections 7 and 9 especially. So when people, including Pence are pointing to the 1993 law, or other states RFRA they're being dishonest. The Indiana RFRA law is poorly written and vague. Other RFRA's have limitations, Indiana's does not.
    "Big or small, I don't like rabbits. They always look like they're about to say something, but they never do."
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Your point would be?
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    If the business owners were Muslims the government would side in favor of them. I am all for one's right to refuse service to any persons of their choosing. FK the fed.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Funny use of an example. You know, if I was to sell my car the government would want to know about that. That's pretty interesting, isn't it? That example also fails to take into account that you can actually drive your car on private property without a license, just not public property.
    You can do whatever you want on private property....but not when you open it up to the public. Sorry bub....but you don't get to write your own rules just because you buy a piece of property. It doesn't work that way.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    It depends, an activist district court judge may strike it down, but in reLity it will probably be upheld, it's limited enough in scope that it in many ways mirrors existing federal laws.

    This law only provides an option, not a mandate. The segregation laws on the south were mandatory, you had to segregate your business. This is not
    There is zero chance that this stands up. Zilch.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Blemonds View Post
    Not in Indiana. Not anymore. Pence corrected that error
    Not for long. The taxpayers of Indiana are going to spend millions to fight this law which will be struck without a doubt. Enjoy your bigotry while you can because it won't last.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Didn't read the whole thread, but I have a solution. Allow the law, but include a corollary that states that the business in question should publicly announce what group that are choosing to not serve... that way those who do not want to associate with them will know that this is a "safe zone" and members of that group will avoid that place of business altogether... and anyone else who has issue with the situation.
    Hyperbole aside, word of mouth will produce that same result

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    There is zero chance that this stands up. Zilch.
    Well then the federal law shouldn't either, I eagerly await your challenge to it.

    Keep us updated.

    I peg it 60-40 in favor of being upheld, Indiana is in the most consertative appeal court circuit in the country. And SCOTUS will not be reviewing this case. In fact 20 states have similar laws and I've not heard about those laws being challenged. The only people upset about this are the people who cruised around town looking for the one bakery out of ten with bible verses on the door to jack up. Unless you are a trouble maker you have literally no chance of this being a proble
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    No one cares about your stupid hippy logic
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