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Thread: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    That is exactly what you are saying. It is not a violation to make people get a business license to open a business. It is also not a violation of their rights to make them follow the law. Just because you obtain a business license does not mean you are free to disregard the law and make your own rules. Sorry...it just isn't.
    Can I use my property in the same fashion and not acquire a business license? Yes or no.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Can I use my property in the same fashion and not acquire a business license? Yes or no.
    No. Sorry. You don't have a right to write your own rules. You have a right to your property...but if you want to go into business you have to comply with the laws of this great country.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    No. Sorry. You don't have a right to write your own rules. You have a right to your property...but if you want to go into business you have to comply with the laws of this great country.
    So how many rights do you think should require a government contract for someone to practice?

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    And again you bring up cases which are irrelevant because they deal with expressive organizations when the law being discussed is not limited to expressive organization (which have no need for such a law because their expressions are already protected)

    SO maybe you should study the law a little more. Maybe then you'll stop chanting about cases that are irrelevant
    I have read them and I do not agree that they are irrelevant. Neither is Barnette, or Wooley, or Pruneyard Shopping Center. The law review article I cited also mentions most or all of these. This comment by the Court in Dale goes right to the heart of the problem with overly broad state public accommodations laws:


    State public accommodations laws were originally enacted to prevent discrimination in traditional places of public accommodation -- like inns and trains....In this case, the New Jersey Supreme Court went a step further and applied its public accommodations law to a private entity without even attempting to tie the term "place" to a physical location. As the definition of "public accommodation" has expanded from clearly commercial entities, such as restaurants, bars, and hotels, to membership organizations such as the Boy Scouts, the potential for conflict between state public accommodations laws and the First Amendment rights of organizations has increased.



    In her concurring opinion in the Jaycees case, Justice O'Connor distinguished between commercial associations, which enjoy only minimal First Amendment protection, and expressive associations, which are much more strongly protected. But she did not provide any standard by which to determine which category a particular association falls into. That is the problem. When so many kinds of things are made public accommodations by state laws, there is no way to know if any particular one is mainly an expressive association, or a commercial one. That is what I was getting at in the hypotheticals about architects and photographers--some enterprises and organizations have some features of a commercial business, but also heavily involve the expression or celebration of ideas of some type.

    More than one First Amendment freedom is implicated by these state public accommodations laws, and they overlap somewhat. There is this question of the freedom of association. There is also a question of the freedom of speech, which involves both expressive speech and the freedom from being compelled by law to express views you do not agree with. The smaller the group, club, "business," etc. that a state law defines as a public accommodation, and the more expressive and less commercial its activities, the more likely that law is to run afoul of the First Amendment.

    Another constitutional right, the implied right to personal privacy, may also be implicated by these laws. The Court in the Jaycees case identified the fourteenth amendment's due process clause--where the Court in some cases (including Roe v. Wade) has seemed to locate this privacy right--as another source of associational freedom. This right was also mentioned briefly in the concurring opinion in Prune Yard Shopping Center as a possible basis for a shopkeeper to object to his property being used to promote messages he did not agree with.

    It's not clear to me how a state RFRA (which involves still another First Amendment right, the right to free exercise of religion) would interact with public accommodations laws. The Court discussed its free exercise decisions involving shops--one a kosher butcher, as I recall--in the Hobby Lobby decision.
    Last edited by matchlight; 03-28-15 at 08:54 PM.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    So how many rights do you think should require a government contract for someone to practice?
    Again...it is not an inherent right to open a business and write your own rules. What is so difficult to understand about that? I can buy a car but if I want to drive it...I have to have a license and comply with the law. Just because I buy a car doesn't give me the right to drive it anywhere I want and be free of the laws. Do you understand?

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    And there is nothing in the RFRA, state or federal, to prevent that.
    Well, as long as this bill does not limit the protection under the law people have in Indiana or legalize religious public accommodations from discriminating against people (of color, different sexual preference, etc.) than this is not a bill that is going to "allow businesses to reject gay customers". And if that is not going to happen then this governor can sign his little fingers to the bone for all I care. Religious freedom is a constitutionally guaranteed right and as long as it is not "reformed" into the right to discriminate others then there is no problem.

    I may be an atheist but I do not care other people being religious as long as they respect other people just like other people should respect people who are religious.
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Again...it is not an inherent right to open a business and write your own rules. What is so difficult to understand about that? I can buy a car but if I want to drive it...I have to have a license and comply with the law. Just because I buy a car doesn't give me the right to drive it anywhere I want and be free of the laws. Do you understand?
    Funny use of an example. You know, if I was to sell my car the government would want to know about that. That's pretty interesting, isn't it? That example also fails to take into account that you can actually drive your car on private property without a license, just not public property.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Public accommodation laws should be repealed.

    They should be allowed to because it is their property, their labor, their time, and their association that is required for the gay couple to have anything from them.
    No, public accommodation laws should not be repealed. There is no right to discriminate in the constitution and for a good reason. Selling someone a product is not associating with them, it is called doing your job.
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    No, public accommodation laws should not be repealed. There is no right to discriminate in the constitution and for a good reason. Selling someone a product is not associating with them, it is called doing your job.
    I will give you one chance to take that back. Do you want to stick to the argument that there is no right to discriminate?

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    You might want to study the law on this a little more. The Supreme Court made clear in the Hurley case that a state public accommodations law which compels a person in charge of a public accommodation to express or endorse views he does not agree with violates the freedom of speech and is therefore unconstitutional. That case involved a Massachusetts law that made the Boston St. Patrick's Day Parade a public accommodation. The parade's organizers had declined to let an Irish-American homosexual group take part in it, and the group had sued under the state public accommodations law.

    A chapter of the Boy Scouts met the definition of a public accommodation under a New Jersey law, and the chapter had revoked the membership of a scoutmaster upon discovering he was a homosexual. He sued under the law claiming the Scouts had discriminated against him because of his sexual orientation, and here too, the Supreme Court held the law violated a First Amendment right--in this case the right of expressive association.

    I already posted a link here to a law review article on the serious First Amendment issues that far-reaching state public accommodations laws raise. I realize statists don't like the First Amendment. But they should realize it's not going anywhere.
    I am talking about the federal accommodation law:

    Privately-owned businesses and facilities that offer certain goods or services to the public -- including food, lodging, gasoline, and entertainment -- are considered public accommodations for purposes of federal and state anti-discrimination laws.
    To me the boy scouts of America are not a public accommodation and neither is the St. Patrick's Day Parade. We are talking about things that are somewhat essential and should be open to everybody like food stores, hotels, motels, gas stations, cinema's, etc.
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