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Thread: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

  1. #1071
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    No one is forced into commerce by civil rights laws. The real bigots are the right wing christians who insist on being granted special rights.
    Exactly. They are forced out of the marketplace by the new bigotry sanctioned by the government

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Blemonds View Post
    Exactly. They are forced out of the marketplace by the new bigotry sanctioned by the government
    No one is forced out of the marketplace. The special flowers choose to leave the marketplace in order to protect their bigoted egos.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Neither the federal RFRA nor any SCOTUS decision extends to considering anyone of any belief to be "the devil." That's already out of bounds.
    The law prohibits discrimination against Jews. A skinhead's conscience (presumably) tells him to discriminate against Jews. If he's in business open to the public, the law requires him to act contrary to his conscience.

    I don't know why you're insisting I embrace cognitive dissonance to have this discussion with you.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    The fed can take away state "autonomy" just as easily - see: civil war

    States have no rights and deserve even less. Indiana is a prime example of why
    It took the Civil War, which cost the lives of at least three hundred thousand Union men, plus three post-Civil War constitutional amendments, and particularly the Fourteenth--each of which had to be ratified by three-fourths of the states--to change the balance of power between the states and the United States. You may describe that as taking away the autonomy of the states "easily," but I would not.

    The Supreme Court disagrees with your assertion that "states have no rights." Of course they have sole jurisdiction over all sorts of matters, as the Court has made clear in a number of decisions. New York v. United States and Pritz v. United States are two decisions from the 1990's in which the Court has discussed the Tenth Amendment and the federalist structure of our government.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Wrong. They can run a business, make sales and sell to whomever they want without paying any fines if they choose to do so. But if they run their business as a public accommodation, then they have to serve the public. All of the public.
    Please define public accomodation. Is a grocery store a public accomodation? How about a clothing store? A hardware store? A hair dresser?
    "Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place."
    -- Frederic Bastiat

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Therein lies the deception and BS that the Mormon church engaged in. There are documents and recordings that demonstrate the actions of the Mormon church and the efforts that they underwent to hide their illegal activities.


    Illegal activities? The mormons may have violated their own internal rules by creatively accounting for monies spent, but they did nothing illegal. They retain the same right to advocate for or against legislation as anyone else. They just have to show a religous basis for doing so.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Neither the federal RFRA nor any SCOTUS decision extends to considering anyone of any belief to be "the devil." That's already out of bounds.
    Also, too, let's try again on this:

    And on the broader question, you've also quoted legal experts who say there isn't any instance of the RFRA allowing discrimination against LGBT. But clearly some people's consciences demand they DO discriminate - they've sued for the right to discriminate against same sex couples and deny service to them.

    This law either does or does not give Christians the right to act consistent with their conscience and deny services to gays. Which is it?

    BTW, you're hilariously saying that if liberals believe one of your statements (law allows people to act consistent with their consciences), they're purposely ginning up a faux controversy, and to prove it you contradict yourself and point out nothing in RFRA or state equivalents allow for discrimination....

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    I'm not so sure about that. The Supreme Court has largely left intact the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act. The law was deemed an unconstitutional use of Congress' enforcement powers as it applied to the states, but that's about it. It still applies to the federal government. So now some states are using this law (which, incidentally, was introduced by one of the most liberal Democrats in Congress, Chuck Schumer, passed unanimously in in the House, and signed into law by Bill Clinton) as a model to answer the adoption of same-sex marriage within their borders by court decree. Since SCOTUS said the federal law doesn't apply to the states, some states felt they needed to close that argument. More recently SCOTUS has shown a tendency to uphold religious freedom, as in the Hobby Lobby case.
    Quite a few states have passed their own RFRA's, modeled on the federal RFRA. The main thing these do is subject state laws which restrict the free exercise of religion to a rigorous standard that borrows the language of the Supreme Court's "strict scrutiny" standard. The intent of these laws is to restore the broad view of the right to free exercise the Court took in Verner, Yoder, and other decisions before 1990, when it drastically narrowed its interpretation of the right in Employment Division v. Smith. Smith was an Indian who had been fired for taking peyote, and for that reason denied unemployment payments by Oregon. He claimed he had been exercising his religion by taking the peyote, but the Court was unwilling to let that trump a generally applicable state law.

    The Court had been showing signs of becoming more skeptical of free exercise claims in decisions before Smith, but the decision still shocked people enough to prompt the federal RFRA. The RFRA was the law involved in the Hobby Lobby case. The Court held an HHS regulation violated the RFRA because the government could not show it was the alternative that least restricted the right to free exercise, as that law requires. (The owners of Hobby Lobby believed four of the contraceptives it was being required to provide were in fact abortifacients and objected to them because of their religious opposition to abortion.)

    An existing HHS rule made an accommodation for religious non-profits that relieved the employer of the duty to include contraceptives in its employee health insurance plan, and had the insurer itself provide the employees contraceptives in a separate plan. The Court could see no good reason why HHS could not also extend this rule, which burdened the right to free exercise less than the rule being challenged, to for-profit religious corporations like Hobby Lobby.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by freeRadical View Post
    Please define public accomodation. Is a grocery store a public accomodation? How about a clothing store? A hardware store? A hair dresser?
    I'm not here to educate you. There are various laws concerning public accommodations. If you want to learn about them, "Google is your friend"
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I'm not here to educate you. There are various laws concerning public accommodations. If you want to learn about them, "Google is your friend"
    So you can't define it? I want to know your definition of public accomodation.
    "Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place."
    -- Frederic Bastiat

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