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Thread: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    You highlight one town in Indiana and call them trailer trash without any documentation. No reference to anything bigoted they have done, nothing more than the idea that they look like "shanty towns of westboro caliber fanaticism." I've never seen such hypocritical bigotry before, and it isn't pretty.
    believe me, the last thing i'm doing is trying to impress you

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Wrong. They can run a business, make sales and sell to whomever they want without paying any fines if they choose to do so. But if they run their business as a public accommodation, then they have to serve the public. All of the public.
    You contradicted yourself. The goal is to marginalize Christians in particular and drive them out of the marketplace. Bigotry of the worst kind. State supported bigotry not unlike the Jim Crow laws

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    I'll bet SCOTUS will overturn this easily.
    I'm not so sure about that. The Supreme Court has largely left intact the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act. The law was deemed an unconstitutional use of Congress' enforcement powers as it applied to the states, but that's about it. It still applies to the federal government. So now some states are using this law (which, incidentally, was introduced by one of the most liberal Democrats in Congress, Chuck Schumer, passed unanimously in in the House, and signed into law by Bill Clinton) as a model to answer the adoption of same-sex marriage within their borders by court decree. Since SCOTUS said the federal law doesn't apply to the states, some states felt they needed to close that argument. More recently SCOTUS has shown a tendency to uphold religious freedom, as in the Hobby Lobby case.
    Last edited by Ahlevah; 03-28-15 at 10:34 AM.
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I agree, the nature of the business would also be a factor. I shop at an independently owned hardware store (one of the few still operating) next to an independent barber. An owner occupied barber being asked to give the skin head a new head shave (intimate contact) may well be given alot of leeway as to what business impact is needed for a ban to be enacted.

    At the same time, I would still bet that size matters, even for hardware store with the diverse customers and non intimate contact. At the end of the day, the Fair Housing Act is very powerful, yet small scale owners are exempt. My guess is that the hardware store owner would be given more leeway than Home Depot regarding bans simply based on his size and being owner occupied.

    Another factor is the local jurisdiction. I live in a red state with an emphasis on property rights. Though this is not a property rights issue, there could well be some bleed over from that concept supporting more leeway to an owner regarding what is, or is not a business impact. Likewise, a blue state with an emphasis on civil rights service obligations may not allow alot of fuzziness in what is, or is not a business impact. (though such bans are not truly a civil rights issue either).
    Aside from explicit exemptions based on size (such as the one for housing) I don't think size, in and of itself, is much of a factor, if at all. IMO, I think it's more the circumstances that come along with size.

    However, I do think you're right to say that judges in different areas will come to different conclusions. There are definitely parts of the law which are unclear and judges often mirror their constituents in terms of POV.
    Last edited by sangha; 03-28-15 at 10:36 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Right but that's not what's happening. Rarely if ever is the state the plaintiff claiming grievances over lost commerce.
    Not in Indiana, but the argument being made is that it is illegitimate for our govt, at any level, to ban such discrimination. The claim is that it is an infringement of various constitutional rights. What this ignores is the fact that the govt has the power to limit our rights under certain conditions, and avoiding harm to commerce is one of those conditions.

    The fact that the people of Indiana have chosen to not take action to prevent that harm does not mean that it could, if it chose to, take such action and remain within the limits the constitution places on the powers of govt.

    And in states with such laws, it is usually the state that takes action. The Sweet cakes by Melissa is an example of the state taking action against a business that has discriminated on the basis of sexual orientation citing a religious objection
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
    Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers - CNN.com



    Wow. WTF Indiana????
    You trying to out-religious the bible-belt states?
    Is Indiana becoming Mississippi2.0 or something?

    This is going to be interesting to watch.
    This may come as a shock to people on the East Coast, but there are a lot of religious conservatives in Flyoverland.
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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Blemonds View Post
    You contradicted yourself. The goal is to marginalize Christians in particular and drive them out of the marketplace. Bigotry of the worst kind. State supported bigotry not unlike the Jim Crow laws
    There is nothing in the law that applies specifically to christians or any specific group. The law applies to atheists just as it applies to the religious.

    And there is nothing bigoted about prohibiting acts which harm commerce. It is a legitimate function of govt. What you want is "special rights" for christians which is a reprehensible form of theocratic bigotry.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Blemonds View Post
    No, but they are forced to either make the sale pay the fine or quit the business. Quitting is the real goal of the homosexual agenda, forcing people who are not compliant out of the market place. That's what they call tolerance but is actually true bigotry

    Not quite true:

    The options are make the sale, pay the fine, quit the business, or not offer the goods and services for which they have a specific problem. This is demonstrated by Masterpiece Cakes in Colorado. They have opted not to offer wedding cakes as part of their business model. Same with "The Hitching Post" in Idaho, the used to offer both religious and civil (non-religious) weddings. Because of the city ordinance they changed their business model and eliminated the option of a civil only ceremony. Since both owners are members of the clergy (an important distinction) and only perform religious weddings, even though they operate a for profit business, they are not required to perform non-religious weddings outside their faith.


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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Blemonds View Post
    You contradicted yourself. The goal is to marginalize Christians in particular and drive them out of the marketplace. Bigotry of the worst kind. State supported bigotry not unlike the Jim Crow laws
    Anti-discrimination laws would require businesses open to the public to effectively declare, "We serve everyone."

    Jim Crow laws required or allowed businesses to declare, "Whites Only."

    It takes a curious detachment from reality to equate those two laws.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    So the law doesn't in fact protect individuals and businesses from supporters of homosexual marriages, bakers will still have to bake for SS wedding, etc., the supporters of the law weren't being honest about what the law would do, and everyone should recognize that they were lying and just forget about it. Got it.

    BTW, your legal opinion on the potential effects is noted, but not persuasive, since people with actual law degrees disagree on the potential impacts of the law.
    People are not required to engage in acts which violate their consciences. And in the case of businesses that's pretty narrowly drawn, per the Hobby Lobby decision. As for the baker, I suspect he'd have to bake the cake but I doubt he could be compelled to put two grooms on top.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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