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Thread: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    No, it does not.
    On this mini exchange, you just told me that the law would prohibit me from acting against on my conscience to deny services to the devil Jews in my community. Now you're telling me the law allows me to act consistent with my conscience. You'll need to take a side.

    And on the broader question, you've also quoted legal experts who say there isn't any instance of the RFRA allowing discrimination against LGBT. But clearly some people's consciences demand they DO discriminate. Again, pick a side. This law either does or does not give Christians the right to act consistent with the conscience and deny services to gays. Which is it?

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Except for that last sentence, you seem to be pretty close. I'm not sure, but I think simply having some nazi regalia may not be enough to justify a refusal. You'd have to show that their appearance was so offensive that it would be clearly disruptive and my understanding is that the courts are not sympathetic to claims of "My customers won't like it". IOW, wearing a necklace with a swastika is one thing while coming in wearing a full uniform, complete with jackboots is another. Also, the nature of the business may also play a role in whether the refusal is legal.
    Subjectively, I think the size of the business could be an impact as well.

    Small, owner occupied businesses have been seen as more of a personal extension of the owner than larger busineses. Small boarding houeses and small scale rental owners are expempt portions of the equal hoiusing act. Likewise, in some juridictions small scale, owner occupied businesses can demand that employees adhere to religous rules while at work (New York case involving ultra orthodox jewish owner) or refuse to hire women for certain jobs (Mennonite construction firm case(?) ).

    As such, a small business maybe able to get away with a "necklace level" type ban out of deference ("I just dont like "X", but I can arguably show somewhat of a business impact"), while a larger business with an absent owner maybe limited to a "full costume" ban only.

    As a side note, though I am well aware that large cooperate business exist, I shop independent when ever possible. As a result, when I envision a "business", I automatically picture a small, owner occupied place, and presume that Mr Geppeto owns it.
    Last edited by Cryptic; 03-28-15 at 09:28 AM.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    It's not odd at all. If you've been to the midwest, you know it's littered with shanty towns of westboro caliber fanaticism

    Christian fanatics are no better than the mormon variety
    I am disappointed reading the Christian media on this topic. They accuse other media sources of being dishonest about this law and then claim this one is no different than the other 20 RFRAs in the country when this one is by far the broadest ever passed in the country.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Subjectively, I think the size of the business could be an impact as well.

    Small, owner occupied businesses have been seen as more of a personal extension of the owner than larger busineses. Small boarding houeses and small scale rental owners are expempt portions of the equal hoiusing act. Likewise, in some juridictions small scale, owner occupied businesses can demand that employees adhere to religous rules while at work (New York case involving ultra orthodox jewish owner) or refuse to hire women for certain jobs (Mennonite construction firm case(?) ).

    As such, a small business maybe able to get away with a "necklace level" type ban ("I just dont like "X", but I can arguably show somewhat of a business impact"), while a larger business with an absent owner maybe limited to a "full costume" ban only.
    That's probably true. A larger business is more likely to have a more diverse clientele. However, aside from explicit exemptions based on size, I think there are situations where smallness isn't a factor. Take a business that basically sells something and the customer walks off, like a hardware store. People come in, buy what they need, and leave. I doubt they'd be able to institute a dress code that is any more restrictive than what the law allows. It may be possible, but I don't see it (absent any "special case" sort of exemption)
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Public accommodations prevent acts of discrimination
    That's the same as saying that public accommodations prevent freedom. Good point. And said laws prevent freedom by forcing people to act against their consciences

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Blemonds View Post
    That's the same as saying that public accommodations prevent freedom. Good point. And said laws prevent freedom by forcing people to act against their consciences
    No one is forced to sell anything to anyone
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    So was anyone harmed by being denied service? If not, what is the grounds for government action?

    The point of my earlier post was that when someone says no the answer is no and you're supposed to walk away. People don't like to just deal with such realities though so they ignore consent and they use force to get their way. All I hear is screw relying on consent to trade with others because we have force and we aren't scared to use it. You're NOT harmed because of the reason someone refuses to trade with you, so why should the reason matter? It shouldn't logically speaking, but no we can't have people not agreeing with us, so **** them they will obey our opinions. It emotional idiotic nonsense.
    You really think that there's no harm done in forcing a black person out of a restaurant because he is black?
    Give a man a fish and he can eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he can sit in a boat, drinking beer all day while you fool around with his Woman.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Why won't you just tell me what harm was inflicted on them?
    Frankly speaking if someone experiences emotional harm because a baker rejected their business for a wedding cake, they aren't emotionally prepared to be in a marriage in the first place

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Blemonds View Post
    How ironic
    I fail to see the irony.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    I will refer to bigots in any way i please, usually in the way that will piss them off the most.

    So case in point, if you don't like it, good!
    The real bigots turn out to be same sex couples. How weird is that?

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