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Thread: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    There was non and they know it. No harm = no victim.
    Commerce is harmed therefore all of the nation is harmed.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    um, getting kicked out of a restaurant just for being homosexual? the right flips its **** every year just because the cashier says happy holidays. imagine if they escorted your whole family out instead. as a gay libertarian, though, i'm sure you would take pride that this store exercised its rights. perhaps someday a restaurant will materialize out of thin air to serve gay libertarians in your state, and until then, you'll just eat sand and applaud all of those restaurants kicking out gay libertarians. what harm was done? please. what harm was done to black people who weren't allowed to sit at the ****ing lunch counter in the early sixties? FFS.
    I've been asked to leave just for being legaly armed and that's a spicificaly protected right while sexuality is not, so why should gays have special privileges?

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Commerce is harmed therefore all of the nation is harmed.
    The state wasn't the complaining party and a couple don't encompass commerce. Try again.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    The state wasn't the complaining party and a couple don't encompass commerce. Try again.
    The state can, if it chooses, protect itself from the harm with laws prohibiting discrimination.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Again, the problem is some supporters who are vocal and powerful opponents of SSM were cheering the passage of this bill and those like it in other states, and their rhetoric was focused on how it would protect people from teh gays. They specifically say the law would allow some businesses to discriminate against (deny services to) homosexuals getting married - specifically mentioned were photographers, florists and bakers. That's what the supporters have claimed. If businesses can deny services to gay weddings, what else is permitted under this law? Can restaurants refuse their services, hotels, can a lessor deny apartments to gay couples? Can a business deny spousal benefits to a legally married but same sex couple?

    I've read a legal analysis signed by 16 scholars who say the bill will do no such thing - that anti-discrimination laws will withstand RFRA challenges - and they support the legislation.

    Another analysis by 30 legal scholars opposes the bill for a variety of reasons, among them that concludes that the law will likely at least provide what businesses believe is a license to discriminate, and that a flood of litigation is likely.

    I don't know the answer, but if we believe some proponents that the bill is an important way to "protect" some people and businesses from "supporters of homosexual marriage" it is a license for discrimination in some circumstances that aren't well defined or understood. Pence and others defending it say it will do no such thing. So at the signing ceremony you've got people who are making conflicting claims both cheering the same law. Maybe the anti-SSM folks are just playing to the base and that part of it is all politics and baseless rhetoric, but then you can't blame those on the other side for taking those claims at face value and responding to them. And it seems wise to be concerned when groups working hard to oppose SSM are behind these efforts and are clapping as the bill is signed into law.
    I can certainly blame "those on the other side" for trying to make something out of nothing. RFRA is not a license to discriminate.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    I don't know who cardinal is....but the Mormons spent millions on prop 8
    Individual Mormons may have spent millions, as is their right, but the Mormon church as an institution spent only $180,000.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Right, that was the point of me saying "it depends" etc. in response to your blanket and unqualified statement. The law sometimes specifically forces some individuals to act contrary to their "consciences."
    No, it does not.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    OK, it looks like thre reality is more complex than I thought. Abitrary discrimination based on potlical beliefs is illegal. But, if the owner can demonstrate a legitimate business reason to ban the open expression of certain poltical beleifs, than his discrmination is no longer arbitary.

    Going back to dress codes, and waffen / skin head regalia (socio polticla belief), any business can ban such attire if they can show a legitmitamte business reason for doing so. The most common business reason would be that the get up alienates other customers, can be disruptive and/or implies that the owner is sympathetic to the waffeneers. This results in a business loss.

    Thus:

    Unlike what I said, refusals for non protected grounds cant be totally arbitrary
    Unlike what you said, any business can potentially have a dress code, and any business can potentially ban socio poltical expression. No business is obligated to allow waffen wear (providing they can show a business reason for doing so).

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    I can certainly blame "those on the other side" for trying to make something out of nothing. RFRA is not a license to discriminate.
    So the law doesn't in fact protect individuals and businesses from supporters of homosexual marriages, bakers will still have to bake for SS wedding, etc., the supporters of the law weren't being honest about what the law would do, and everyone should recognize that they were lying and just forget about it. Got it.

    BTW, your legal opinion on the potential effects is noted, but not persuasive, since people with actual law degrees disagree on the potential impacts of the law.

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    Re: Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    OK, it looks like thre reality is more complex than I thought. Abitrary discrimination based on potlical beliefs is illegal. But, if the owner can demonstrate a legitimate business reason to ban the open expression of certain poltical beleifs, than his discrmination is no longer arbitary.
    Yes, it is pretty complex. While the general rules are fairly clear (ie you can't refuse service because of gender, age, etc) the various exceptions can complicate things. For example, if my business involves providing services to political campaigns (ex polling, advertising, etc) there's a good chance I can refuse work based on the politics of the prospective client.

    Going back to dress codes, and waffen / skin head regalia (socio polticla belief), any business can ban such attire if they can show a legitmitamte business reason for doing so. The most common business reason would be that the get up alienates other customers, can be disruptive and/or implies that the owner is sympathetic to the waffeneers. This results in a business loss.

    Thus:

    Unlike what I said, refusals for non protected grounds cant be totally arbitrary
    Unlike what you said, any business can potentially have a dress code, and any business can potentially ban socio poltical expression. No business is obligated to allow waffen wear (providing they can show a business reason for doing so).
    Except for that last sentence, you seem to be pretty close. I'm not sure, but I think simply having some nazi regalia may not be enough to justify a refusal. You'd have to show that their appearance was so offensive that it would be clearly disruptive and my understanding is that the courts are not sympathetic to claims of "My customers won't like it". IOW, wearing a necklace with a swastika is one thing while coming in wearing a full uniform, complete with jackboots is another. Also, the nature of the business may also play a role in whether the refusal is legal.

    Generally speaking, all-encompassing generalizations are generally wrong when it comes to these things.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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