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Thread: Ted Cruz going on Obamacare

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    Re: Ted Cruz going on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    i've given my definitions already.. .they are supported by the dictionary.
    be wary of ruling out a term based on a single definition that does not apply.... as words have more than one definition, others may indeed apply( as is the case with the term "force")

    when there is an official government order with or without a penalty... there is force... end of story.

    and no, it's not rhetoric or snake oil to claim capitalism is the best economic system the earth has ever seen.. it's objective fact.
    Socialism cannot offer the potential capitalism actually lives up to... it's an inherently constrained system resulting in mediocrity at best.
    Sure it is Like I said, not worth us both going back and forth. I already have stated it is the best system currently in existence and being utilized as of right now.

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    Re: Ted Cruz going on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Dovkan View Post
    Really? Universal healthcare is government run healthcare that benefits everyone that is not privatized, that seems "socialist" to me. I agree capitalism brings forth these programs, as there has never been good bearing for true socialism to rise up in a well developed country, so I accept that capitalism exists, and contributes. I've already said this.
    universal healthcare can be socialist, depending on it's structure... but as the socialized aspect of universal healthcare is primarily in the delivery of healthcare, you'd be hard pressed to categorize it as "production".
    every bit of the infrastructure in the universal healthcare system in developed countries in capitalist in nature, though the delivery and funding are public and can be construed as socialist in a loose sense of the term.

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    Re: Ted Cruz going on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    universal healthcare can be socialist, depending on it's structure... but as the socialized aspect of universal healthcare is primarily in the delivery of healthcare, you'd be hard pressed to categorize it as "production".
    every bit of the infrastructure in the universal healthcare system in developed countries in capitalist in nature, though the delivery and funding are public and can be construed as socialist in a loose sense of the term.
    The delivery and funding are socialist in nature, and I've already attested to capitalism as a supporting factor.

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    Re: Ted Cruz going on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Dovkan View Post
    The delivery and funding are socialist in nature, and I've already attested to capitalism as a supporting factor.
    that's kinda sorta what i said... though the term "socialist" must be used in a very loose sense to be accurate.

    capitalism isn't a "supporting factor"... it's the reason the programs exist and succeed.

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    Re: Ted Cruz going on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    that's kinda sorta what i said... though the term "socialist" must be used in a very loose sense to be accurate.

    capitalism isn't a "supporting factor"... it's the reason the programs exist and succeed.
    Yes, a supporting factor, and the main reason, I agree, I've already said multiple times capitalism is the current system being used, and the one working as of now.
    Socialism doesn't need to be used loosely, universal healthcare is socialist in it's very application. I still do not agree with capitalism fundamentally, as you do not agree with socialism.
    Last edited by Dovkan; 03-26-15 at 11:41 PM.

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    Re: Ted Cruz going on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Dovkan View Post
    Way more then the danes who have socialist minded policies, Germany, canada, denmark, finland, netherlands, ireland, new zealand, belgium, england, costa rica, heck, most of europe has socialist minded policies. Oh yes, because the free market was doing fantastic for everyone before any regulation.
    You're not one for details are you ?

    You just make these generic replies without substance.

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    Re: Ted Cruz going on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    You're not one for details are you ?

    You just make these generic replies without substance.
    They have plenty of substance when you cherry pick select countries and ignore all of the others. Tell me these countries are doing bad with socialist policies I also forgot to add Britain.

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    Re: Ted Cruz going on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Dovkan View Post
    They have plenty of substance when you cherry pick select countries and ignore all of the others. Tell me these countries are doing bad with socialist policies I also forgot to add Britain.
    So I'm not allowed to bring up ACTUAL Socialist failures because that would be " cherry picking " ?

    Sorry, I dont work like that. I'm not restricted by the confines of a ideology that doesnt allow the mentioning of the many fallacies of Socialism.

    I can be honest, post facts and if it offends you then maybe you should re-evaluate your loyalty to a destructive and twisted world view.

    Just a suggestion.

    And I offered up a very detailed explanation of just how destructive Government intervention is.

    You offered up lazy generic talking points.

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    Re: Ted Cruz going on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    So I'm not allowed to bring up ACTUAL Socialist failures because that would be " cherry picking " ?

    Sorry, I dont work like that. I'm not restricted by the confines of a ideology that doesnt allow the mentioning of the many fallacies of Socialism.

    I can be honest, post facts and if it offends you then maybe you should re-evaluate your loyalty to a destructive and twisted world view.

    Just a suggestion.

    And I offered up a very detailed explanation of just how destructive Government intervention is.

    You offered up lazy generic talking points.
    You're of course allowed! But when the successes of socialist policies override the few failures, it isn't a good argument against it. Here you go: Occupy was right: capitalism has failed the world | Books | The Guardian Some good reading to show how capitalism is a failure, even though I'll even agree it is working, for the wealthy
    I'm not restricted to a confine, I appreciate your inquiry.
    I don't dispute your facts, they show that every system has flaws, which I agree with.
    They have ALWAYS incentivized the creation of wealth and profit. Those are two concepts that don't fit into central planning.

    Chavez rose to power under the pretense that he would give the wealth of the Country " back to the people."

    But without the free market principles that efficiently allocate goods and services his Socialist utopia turned into a nightmare.

    Government intervention corrupts and undermines the core principles of the Free market and then people like you point to the destruction as a example of Capitalisms failure

    In the 90s the Democrats manufactured the false narrative of " discriminatory lending practices " and implemented new Regulations to force Banks to offer " equal credit ".

    Ten Federal agencies ( Fair lending Task Force) were tasked with hunting down Banks who wouldn't or didn't comply with their arbitrary new standards. Banks were sued by the DOJ, by HUD and by Community activist groups like ACORN and Plaintiffs Attorney's like Barrack Obama.

    The Democrats decided that the decades old lending standards were innately racist and through threats , DOJ lawsuits and executive actions they forced lenders to lower those standards.

    In 1995, Bill Clinton co-opted the GSEs into the Subprime market by giving them " affordable lending " quotas that started out at 46 percent.

    That meant Freddie and Fannie had to purchase 1 subprime loan for every prime loan they purchased. These loans were then bundled and sold off as Securities with a " AAA " rating.

    In 1993 Homeowner-ship rates were 63 percent and by 2000 they rose to 68 percent. A unprecedented 5 percent increase in Homeowner-ship rates.

    From 2000- 2008 they rose another 1 percent.

    In 2008 the GSEs were declared insolvent holding over 5 Trillion dollars in debt.

    Progressives like to point to the 2008 Subprime mortgage crisis as a example of the dangers of " Capitalism ".

    The 2008 Financial crisis wasn't the fault of Capitalism or the Free market. It was caused by unprecedented Government intervention into the private sector and it was all predicated on a Lie.

    That the Government would or could be a fair and unbiased arbiter of what was " fair " and undermining the principles of our free market economy would lead to a positive result.
    I don't like Chavez, Venezuela has failed horribly, I agree.
    I am not necessarily against the free market, as realistically, socialism in it's true form will never exist in my lifetime in a country able to support it. I support a free market with regulations and socialist policies, as that's realistic although I'd love socialism.
    Government intervention may not be beneficial all the time, but for the majority of cases, yes, it is. Can you imagine an unregulated free market? Come on now, just look at Americas history. You say the 2008 financial crisis was caused by government intervention, any evidence to back this up apart from your opinion? You want to talk dangers of capitalism and discussion on capitalism?
    http://www.theguardian.com/books/201...thomas-piketty
    I agree that government intervention can be bad, but it has done more good then bad.
    Last edited by Dovkan; 03-27-15 at 12:17 AM.

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    Re: Ted Cruz going on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Dovkan View Post
    Yes, a supporting factor, and the main reason, I agree, I've already said multiple times capitalism is the current system being used, and the one working as of now.
    Socialism doesn't need to be used loosely, universal healthcare is socialist in it's very application. I still do not agree with capitalism fundamentally, as you do not agree with socialism.
    there are quite few forms of universal healthcare... not all are socialist in nature.. .some are far from socialist (such as single payer health insurance)

    at this time in human history, I believe socialism to be unnecessary and ultimately a destructive force( in most cases)..... maybe in the future, as we trend out of human labor based production, Socialism might become necessary and even constructive. ( think in terms of near total automation, and such).

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