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Thread: Out of Yemen, U.S. is Hobbled in Terror Fight

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    Re: U.S. Flees Yemen

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    People wanted him tried for Crimes against Humanity with the UN.....which we prevented that with a few others so he could make that Peaceful transition of power. Keeping the Sunni in control. All it took was a few major powers saying they would grant full immunity.
    I'm not sure what stance you would prefer? The US and Britain to state they wouldn't give him immunity and that he would be tried? Are we also going to provide troops for the overthrow or just allow them to fight among themselves?
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    Re: U.S. Flees Yemen

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    The only people the U.S. is standing up to is Israel.
    Not nearly enough, but it's about time.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: U.S. Flees Yemen

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    So the US should of taken an active role in fighting against a public uprisings?

    As far as being a part of the uprising, sure, I agree to an extent, but largely it is out of your hands when it comes to who the uprising decides to put into power.
    My point is that, for better or worse, the US was actively involved in a lot of these Middle Eastern countries either supporting the powers that be or opposing them. In Egypt, as an example, the US was propping up Mubarak for decades, primarily as a rational Arab voice in the Middle East and as a partner in peace with Israel and then, when trouble arose, rather than try to work with Mubarak to change and to ease his rule, the US abandoned Egypt to its own devices and when Mubarak fell chaos reigned. Had the US been more actively involved, the Muslim Brotherhood may not have been elected and even if it was it would not have felt free to brutally go after Christians and others leading to them being toppled by the military. Leaving the scene in a vacuum has caused America to be hated and distrusted by both sides.

    The same can be said in Yemen except in that case the US weakly propped up the leader for a while and then negotiated his weak replacement on condition of cooperation with the US military to go after terrorist elements in country. That may not have been a bad goal, but how it was handled made it almost inevitable that unrest in Yemen would topple the leadership and with a little help from Iran that's exactly what has happened.

    In country after country, since Obama was elected, the US has lost valuable influence through inattention. The vacuum created by the US sitting out has been filled by others in the region, primarily Iran, Russia and terrorist elements. Perhaps this is concerted US foreign policy in action, but it looks like one inattentive mistake after another. The difference between GW Bush and Obama in the region is quite stark and it's hard to support Obama's position as the preferable one, at least for me.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: U.S. Flees Yemen

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I'm not sure what stance you would prefer? The US and Britain to state they wouldn't give him immunity and that he would be tried? Are we also going to provide troops for the overthrow or just allow them to fight among themselves?
    The Sunni was who the West was backing and The Saud did have the influence with Selah in the first place......what was different that Selah did, that Gadhafi did? Other than not having as much star power.

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    Re: U.S. Flees Yemen

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    I knew all of that already. How is it his fault that Yemen collapsed? As I said, the issue of the Houthis is separate from that of AQAP - the Houthi takeover just makes it more difficult to coordinate with a stable Yemeni government. We had SF and drones in Yemen, and they did a good job of preventing AQAP from becoming like al-Qaeda pre-9/11. And Yemen is not yet a lost cause: I anticipate that if the Houthis are not serious about a unity government, which I doubt they are, the Saudis will come in and wipe away the Iranian encroachment on their border.
    KSA has ISIL on their northern border, a semi-hostile "frenemy" relationship with Washington, an ongoing threat to Bahrain, and need to pour resources into maintaining a capability against a surging Iran across the strait.

    I'm not saying they won't project force - but capability and sustainability for what you are talking about becomes a question.

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    Re: U.S. Flees Yemen

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    The Sunni was who the West was backing and The Saud did have the influence with Selah in the first place......what was different that Selah did, that Gadhafi did? Other than not having as much star power.
    Gadhafi was talking about genocide in order to protect his seat of power.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: U.S. Flees Yemen

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Again: how is this his fault? Does the President of the United States have the power to magically affect everything that happens in some other sovereign nation? I feel the same way when people blame Bush and Blair for ISIS, and even then our involvement was much more direct than it ever has been in Yemen.
    Bush and Blair only turned the vacuum on. Obama administration policies in the Middle East have stuck the hose end (with a little help from Arab countries, to be sure) in Egypt, Libya and Syria. It's in the wake of these power vacuums that the Islamic State has blossomed. Russia and China have been steadfast to point this out, but nobody's listening. And nobody's paying attention to the fact that USFP is at least in part responsible for some of the actions we see by Russia and China of late.

    In 2001, for the first time since 1950 Russia and China signed an alliance/treaty, that had at its heart, beneath the flowery title, aim at checking US hegemony. BRICS, AIIB are amongst the actions to address this.

    Both Russia and China have dramatically increased their military expenditures post 9/11 and the rampant US military adventurism in the ME.
    Last edited by Montecresto; 03-24-15 at 01:13 PM.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: U.S. Flees Yemen

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Gadhafi was talking about genocide in order to protect his seat of power.
    He was? When was he doing that? What year was that? Plus how wasn't Selah talking the same?

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    Re: U.S. Flees Yemen

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    In Egypt, as an example, the US was propping up Mubarak for decades, primarily as a rational Arab voice in the Middle East and as a partner in peace with Israel and then, when trouble arose, rather than try to work with Mubarak to change and to ease his rule, the US abandoned Egypt to its own devices and when Mubarak fell chaos reigned.
    All true. And that happened under Limpwrist's administration.

    Had the US been more actively involved, the Muslim Brotherhood may not have been elected and even if it was it would not have felt free to brutally go after Christians and others leading to them being toppled by the military.
    I think you have that part just backwards. It was B. Hussein Obama and Hillary Clinton who helped usher in Mohammed Morsi's brief rule. The Belle of Benghazi's go-between with the Muslim Brotherhood in doing this was her adviser Huma Abedin, aka Mrs. Anthony Weiner, several members of whose family in Egypt have extensive connections with the Brotherhood. I suspect the fact both of them were married to men who were obsessed with showing their private parts to any woman who would look made them sympathetic to each other.

    In country after country, since Obama was elected, the US has lost valuable influence through inattention. The vacuum created by the US sitting out has been filled by others in the region, primarily Iran, Russia and terrorist elements. Perhaps this is concerted US foreign policy in action, but it looks like one inattentive mistake after another. The difference between GW Bush and Obama in the region is quite stark and it's hard to support Obama's position as the preferable one, at least for me.
    I agree with all that. And I believe it is more than just incompetence at work. This is the first president in U.S. history who plainly dislikes the very country whose interests he is supposed to be upholding. Mr. Obama has a chip on his shoulder about whites and about America in general, and I think he gets a secret frisson out of seeing this country brought down a notch or two. That partly explains his appeasement of our adversaries, and I don't doubt for a moment that Mr. Putin sees what Obama is about and is trying to take advantage of it. The danger is that Russia may make some aggressive move--against Estonia, for example--that even Obama will not be able to ignore.

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    Re: U.S. Flees Yemen

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    My point is that, for better or worse, the US was actively involved in a lot of these Middle Eastern countries either supporting the powers that be or opposing them. In Egypt, as an example, the US was propping up Mubarak for decades, primarily as a rational Arab voice in the Middle East and as a partner in peace with Israel and then, when trouble arose, rather than try to work with Mubarak to change and to ease his rule, the US abandoned Egypt to its own devices and when Mubarak fell chaos reigned. Had the US been more actively involved, the Muslim Brotherhood may not have been elected and even if it was it would not have felt free to brutally go after Christians and others leading to them being toppled by the military. Leaving the scene in a vacuum has caused America to be hated and distrusted by both sides.
    This is an issue I have with this line of thought. It seems like people in the West and people in countries hostile to the US have the same viewpoint. That the US pulls strings and has the power to dictate how events play out. In Iraq and Afghanistan a decade long occupation, tons of money, and a situation where the US was able to exert maximum influence outside of a puppet scenario we end up with a Kharzi that is anti-west when talking to his people and a Maliki. Both are poster boys of bad rule and even then they are limited in their influence. It doesn't even stop there. The Contra war raging in central America lasted for a long time and that's a country that is close to the US and has a fraction of the population of these countries.

    How would the US stop the Muslim Brotherhood from taking over in a democratic election? If the US intervenes than we basically strengthen any group that can pander to arab nationalism and anti-western sentiment.

    It's US intervention in the region and overall western intervention that has led to mistrust of the west in the first place...and it's worked out horribly for the US! We overthrew the Iranian government and it resulted in the Ayatollah taking over. We provided material support to Iraq to check expanding Iranian influence and strengthened Saddam. We overthrew Saddam which has resulted in the expansion of power by Iran and the rising of religious fundamentalist in Iraq.

    These are all situation where the US took an active role in intervening and it turned into an even worse situation, not to mention created a lot of animosity towards the US as a kicker. If intervention was some tried and true way to influence the region I might support it but it's led to one disaster after another.

    The same can be said in Yemen except in that case the US weakly propped up the leader for a while and then negotiated his weak replacement on condition of cooperation with the US military to go after terrorist elements in country. That may not have been a bad goal, but how it was handled made it almost inevitable that unrest in Yemen would topple the leadership and with a little help from Iran that's exactly what has happened.
    You can point to any instance in the world and say the President could of acted differently and created some perfect situation but that's just not true. I can name you a laundry list of things that happened in the world that turned out badly under every President in spite of their actions. I'm not saying that presidents are absolved of any responsibility of the foreign policy decisions but the constant "he should of intervened more" is just faulty logic. Intervention has led to some of worse foreign policy blunders in history.

    In country after country, since Obama was elected, the US has lost valuable influence through inattention. The vacuum created by the US sitting out has been filled by others in the region, primarily Iran, Russia and terrorist elements. Perhaps this is concerted US foreign policy in action, but it looks like one inattentive mistake after another. The difference between GW Bush and Obama in the region is quite stark and it's hard to support Obama's position as the preferable one, at least for me.
    I think Bush was horrible, I think he's the poster boy for why constant intervention backfires and should be taken with extreme caution.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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