Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

JasperL · Mar 21, 2015

Ockham said:
The UVA honor code does not apply to Virginia law. Please show me where in the Virginia Penal Code the UVA honor code is listed. When you don't answer and / or cannot address it, you will then understand why it's irrelevant and has been nor for the past 10 posts I've replied to you. If you continue with the Honor Code nonsense I'll simply delete it and ignore it as I've now said it's irrelevant and it will continue to be irrelevant.

Let's review:

You: And yes, COPS normally don't lie, as when they do and they're caught, they lose credibility within their own department and the charges will be dismissed.

Me: And kids on the Honor Committee at UVa don't normally lie either. They get expelled.

You: This incident didn't occur on U.Va property but off campus, so it's still irrelevant.

Me: (several back and forth comments summarized) It's fact that the Honor Code applies off campus, and especially when he identifies himself as a student, which he did. So if caught lying to police, he CAN BE EXPELLED BY THE HONOR COMMITTEE HER SERVES ON.

So you changed the goal post to the Virginia Penal Code, but I never referred to that - from the beginning I was referring to his risk of expulsion if caught lying, which is FAR worse a risk than any penalty he'll face from these BS charges.

You want to be stupid and resist arrest, that's your right. Please by all means do that and let us all know how it works out for ya. :lamo

I doubt it, as the people I care about don't break the law. If there was actual abuse I'd support and help sue and take those people down. If this happened say to my nephew and not Johnson, I'd probably tell him he was an idiot and to straighten up as well as tell him he was lucky he wasn't shot.

First of all, the only 'law' he broke was not behaving like a good little sheep, kissing the boots of the ABC idiots. And of course it cannot happen to good people, until it does. I imagine Johnson or his family ever imagined an honor student, on the honor committee, student leader, would be bloodied by police while breaking no laws either. But it happened, and you're defending the cops.

You brought up Ferguson, I brought up how the accusations of racism and "hands up don't shoot" was based on a lie, just like the accusations of racism by many now are a lie. :shrug:

The accusations of racism weren't based on a lie. I guess like most people who dismissed the DOJ report, you didn't read any of it.

Dig deep enough in any police force and you'll find something someone did wrong.

You're really bucking for that authoritarian label. That wasn't just 'something.' They stopped the wrong guy, and instead of admitting it and sending him home, they beat him, charged him with destruction of property for bleeding on him, when sued by that person, the department with approval all the way at the top manufactured another BS charge of assaulting an officer, a YEAR AFTER HE WAS BEATEN. So this was sanctioned from the top, and the cops who did this to him faced no penalty. That was one incident. There were many more - it was a department that thrived on abuse of authority, from top to bottom.

Ockham · Mar 22, 2015

JasperL said:
Let's review:

There's nothing to review.

JasperL said:
So you changed the goal post to the Virginia Penal Code, but I never referred to that - from the beginning I was referring to his risk of expulsion if caught lying, which is FAR worse a risk than any penalty he'll face from these BS charges.

I'm the one who quoted and linked the Virginia penal code yesterday. This entire thread is about the charges and arrest of Johnson. I mentioned in post #23 about criminal court - which you'll have to admit has to do with the Virginia Penal Code; :lamo

[quote="Ockham]He is getting due process and will get that due process in court. [/quote]

[quote="Ockham]First of all, the only 'law' he broke was not behaving like a good little sheep, kissing the boots of the ABC idiots. [/quote] That's incorrect and a lie as I've already provided the actual charges, links to the Penal Code and you yourself linked the police charges which did not show "not behaving like a good little sheep" as a charge. You're immature and naive posts are getting tiresome.

[quote="Ockham]The accusations of racism weren't based on a lie. I guess like most people who dismissed the DOJ report, you didn't read any of it. [/quote] The shooting of Brown was not based on racism nor was there any evidence of racism as a motivating factor. That's a fact from your DoJ report. You choose to ignore it and recycle talking points - that's your problem.

[quote="Ockham]You're really bucking for that authoritarian label.[/quote] You think I care what you label me? Pfft! :lamo

[quote="Ockham]That wasn't just 'something.' They stopped the wrong guy, and instead of admitting it and sending him home, they beat him, charged him with destruction of property for bleeding on him, when sued by that person, the department with approval all the way at the top manufactured another BS charge of assaulting an officer, a YEAR AFTER HE WAS BEATEN. So this was sanctioned from the top, and the cops who did this to him faced no penalty. That was one incident. There were many more - it was a department that thrived on abuse of authority, from top to bottom.[/QUOTE] Irrelevant to this topic.

Any other BS notions and regurgitation of nonsense you'd like to discuss - discuss it with someone who likes to be jerked around. I'd rather deal in facts.... you don't seem to have any.

JasperL · Mar 22, 2015

Ockham said:
There's nothing to review.

I'm the one who quoted and linked the Virginia penal code yesterday. This entire thread is about the charges and arrest of Johnson. I mentioned in post #23 about criminal court - which you'll have to admit has to do with the Virginia Penal Code; :lamo

This thread is about the incident. I missed the part where you're named thread police and get to limit discussion of the consequences to a student at UVA to the VA penal code, when as a student he's also subject to the honor code and can be expelled for lying to police. You were wrong and said the honor code didn't apply - it does. You could have just accepted you were wrong and we'd have moved on long ago

That's incorrect and a lie as I've already provided the actual charges, links to the Penal Code and you yourself linked the police charges which did not show "not behaving like a good little sheep" as a charge. You're immature and naive posts are getting tiresome.

One charge was either being drunk or swearing, we're not sure, but he was charged with that because of how he dealt with the police. The obstruction charge was explicitly about him not behaving like a subservient sheep. There was no underlying crime. He didn't present fake ID. He didn't commit assault. He didn't lie, steal, etc. The only "victim" you can point to are the ABC assholes, maybe the police, whose feelings were hurt. If the police weren't on scene, he's turned away from the bar and nothing more happens.....

The shooting of Brown was not based on racism nor was there any evidence of racism as a motivating factor. That's a fact from your DoJ report. You choose to ignore it and recycle talking points - that's your problem.

You keep bringing up Brown, I keep pointing out I'm not talking about that incident...

Irrelevant to this topic.

OK, so now you're just not even trying to have a reasonable discussion. You say I'm recycling talking points, but when I bring up an incident that indicts the leadership of the Ferguson PD in an egregious case of police abuse of power, you simply dismiss it as "irrelevant."

Any other BS notions and regurgitation of nonsense you'd like to discuss - discuss it with someone who likes to be jerked around. I'd rather deal in facts.... you don't seem to have any.

For someone with no facts, I've had no problem debunking you.

Ockham · Mar 22, 2015

[

JasperL said:
One charge was either being drunk or swearing, we're not sure, but he was charged with that because of how he dealt with the police.

You're sure, you linked the actual charges remember? What makes you suddenly "unsure"?

JasperL said:
You keep bringing up Brown, I keep pointing out I'm not talking about that incident...

No I keep responding to your posts which bring up Ferguson. There's a difference.

JasperL said:
OK, so now you're just not even trying to have a reasonable discussion.

I'm not? What am I doing --- ask your magic 8 ball and when you do shake it vigorously.

JasperL said:
You say I'm recycling talking points, but when I bring up an incident that indicts the leadership of the Ferguson PD in an egregious case of police abuse of power, you simply dismiss it as "irrelevant."

You're recyling talking points... the constant vomiting of "act like a sheep" was boring the first time you used it, not to mention the next 8 times.

JasperL said:
For someone with no facts, I've had no problem debunking you.

Only in your own mind. Debunking requires facts. The only fact you've provided is a link to the actual police paperwork. Everything else has been "hands up don't shoot" regurgitation.

Really though... show me a court case that used the UVA "Honor Code".... :lamo That's gotta be one of the biggest fails I've seen on DP in a long time.

JasperL · Mar 22, 2015

Ockham said:
You're sure, you linked the actual charges remember? What makes you suddenly "unsure"?

The code is 18.2-388. Some text: "If any person profanely curses or swears or is intoxicated in public."

The summons description was public intoxication, but according to the UVa VP, he passed a breathalyzer test. But we saw him swearing on the video. Are you sure which part of 18.2-388 he supposedly violated?

No I keep responding to your posts which bring up Ferguson. There's a difference.

"Hands up don't shoot" isn't part of the DOJ report.

I'm not? What am I doing --- ask your magic 8 ball and when you do shake it vigorously.

Changing goal posts, diverting, blindly defending police misconduct, etc.

You're recyling talking points... the constant vomiting of "act like a sheep" was boring the first time you used it, not to mention the next 8 times.

I am not sure how else to make the point you keep ignoring. His "crime" here was based entirely on a failure to show asshole cops the proper respect, while they question him and detain him on BS charges. I guess we can just agree to disagree that it's a problem.

Only in your own mind. Debunking requires facts. The only fact you've provided is a link to the actual police paperwork. Everything else has been "hands up don't shoot" regurgitation.

And what facts have you brought?

Really though... show me a court case that used the UVA "Honor Code".... :lamo That's gotta be one of the biggest fails I've seen on DP in a long time.

What's LMMFAO funny is you seem to believe you've made a legitimate point. Why would Johnson only care about penalties that "a court" could impose here? If that's all he cares about, he's an idiot and so is his attorney, and the evidence is neither is an idiot.

First of all, the charges are BS and will either be dismissed (VERY likely) or otherwise be bargained down to a big fat nothing (keep clean for six months, a year, and it's expunged, etc.) Second, if he's shown to have lied, expulsion from UVa, in mid semester, in his third year, as an honor student and student leader, would be FAR, FAR worse than any penalties for a first time offender on these BS charges. So if he's smart, which he is - an honor student at UVa isn't easy - the one thing he will NOT do under any circumstance is threaten his future at UVa, which he would do by lying to police or to the public.

Of course, you know this but can't admit it because you don't want to admit you were wrong about the Honor Code applying off campus. That's also quite funny.

Ockham · Mar 22, 2015

JasperL said:
The summons description was public intoxication, but according to the UVa VP, he passed a breathalyzer test.

Link the breathalyzer test.

JasperL said:
"Hands up don't shoot" isn't part of the DOJ report.

Actually it was, Page 32.

DOJ report on Shooting of Michael Brown said:
However, Witness 108 refused to provide additional details to either county or federal authorities, citing community sentiment to
support a “hands up” surrender narrative as his reason to remain silent.

Also page 48

DOJ report on Shooting of Michael Brown said:
Witness 133 also acknowledged that she has been watching the news and “hands up” had become the “mantra” of the protesters.

http://www.justice.gov/sites/defaul...doj_report_on_shooting_of_michael_brown_1.pdf

But I agree "Hands up don't shoot" isn't relevant to the Johnson case, legally speaking.

JasperL said:
Changing goal posts, diverting, blindly defending police misconduct, etc.

You're losing your argument and making baseless accusations won't change that.

JasperL said:
I am not sure how else to make the point you keep ignoring. His "crime" here was based entirely on a failure to show asshole cops the proper respect, while they question him and detain him on BS charges. I guess we can just agree to disagree that it's a problem.

His crime was trying to gain access to a bar being under age and then resisting ABC officers when questioned about it. Legally in Virginia the drinking age is 21.

JasperL said:
And what facts have you brought?

You can go read my prior posts. If you think I'm going to restate them all over again you're very mistaken. :lamo

JasperL said:
What's LMMFAO funny is you seem to believe you've made a legitimate point.

I've not only made legitimate points, I've made your views look petty, irrelevant and inconsequential given the facts of what we currently know. Your view are based on baggage, emotion and assumption ... mine are based on facts currently know. It's real easy to discern my points and to validate them - it's also very easy to see your accusations are based on bupkus. :shrug:

JasperL said:
First of all, the charges are BS and will either be dismissed (VERY likely) or otherwise be bargained down to a big fat nothing (keep clean for six months, a year, and it's expunged, etc.) Second, if he's shown to have lied, expulsion from UVa, in mid semester, in his third year, as an honor student and student leader, would be FAR, FAR worse than any penalties for a first time offender on these BS charges. So if he's smart, which he is - an honor student at UVa isn't easy - the one thing he will NOT do under any circumstance is threaten his future at UVa, which he would do by lying to police or to the public.

That may or may not be... if he has no priors and given the political sensitivity of the case ... you may be correct. I will wait and see... you I'm have already made up your mind, which has been the problem with your posts in this thread - you fail to see facts and have made up your mind. It shows a lack of maturity and knowledge but I certainly support your doing it.

JasperL said:
Of course, you know this but can't admit it because you don't want to admit you were wrong about the Honor Code applying off campus. That's also quite funny.

I think I already stated it might be the case but I'm smart enough not to bet on how this will play out, whereas you are not.

JasperL · Mar 22, 2015

Ockham said:
Link the breathalyzer test.

So you're sure that was the crime charged? And what evidence do YOU have he was in fact drunk? Less than I do, as it's very unlikely the VP would misstate such an easily proved fact, one way or the other.

BTW, I skipped your references to the DOJ report on the Michael Brown shooting. After saying 10 times I was referring to the DOJ report on the Ferguson PD, I don't know why you're continuing to bring up the Brown shooting. They're different subjects, covered by different reports. You can find the link to the report here.

His crime was trying to gain access to a bar being under age and then resisting ABC officers when questioned about it. Legally in Virginia the drinking age is 21.

It's a crime to TRY to enter a bar while under age 21? Holy cow - almost everyone I knew including me committed CRIMINAL ACTS in college!!! And why didn't they charge him with this supposed "crime"?

And he "resisted" with "NO THRT/FORCE." Aka, didn't show authority the proper respect. Which is the point..... In a sane world, ABC agents don't use force to take down people suspected of trying to enter a bar while underage.

I've not only made legitimate points, I've made your views look petty, irrelevant and inconsequential given the facts of what we currently know. Your view are based on baggage, emotion and assumption ... mine are based on facts currently know. It's real easy to discern my points and to validate them - it's also very easy to see your accusations are based on bupkus. :shrug:

OK....

That may or may not be... if he has no priors and given the political sensitivity of the case ... you may be correct. I will wait and see... you I'm have already made up your mind, which has been the problem with your posts in this thread - you fail to see facts and have made up your mind. It shows a lack of maturity and knowledge but I certainly support your doing it.

The original issue was whether the Honor Code applies, and you said it didn't because it happened off campus, and were proved wrong. Then you said it didn't matter - all that matters was the Virginia Penal Code and the courts. That's also clearly wrong. Expulsion from UVa would be far worse than any criminal penalties in this case, even if not dismissed, which is likely. I'm not sure what your point is now.

I think I already stated it might be the case but I'm smart enough not to bet on how this will play out, whereas you are not.

We're both speculating....

Ockham · Mar 22, 2015

JasperL said:
So you're sure that was the crime charged?

You posted the link to the charges... you tell me. What's changed?

JasperL said:
And what evidence do YOU have he was in fact drunk?

I never claimed he was in fact, drunk. Where's the link to the breathalyzer? No link? But you claimed he blew clear.... just this morning.... right here:

JasperL said:
....but according to the UVa VP, he passed a breathalyzer test.

So where's the verifiable evidence he passed the breathalyzer?

JasperL said:
It's a crime to TRY to enter a bar while under age 21? Holy cow - almost everyone I knew including me committed CRIMINAL ACTS in college!!! And why didn't they charge him with this supposed "crime"?

I never said it wasn't common... but yes, it's a crime. It gets worse when the person acts like a spoiled child and resist the very minor ticket and then is charged with two additional misdemeanors for resisting. :lamo I thought college was supposed to make kids smarter... it sure wasn't working on Johnson.

JasperL said:
And he "resisted" with "NO THRT/FORCE." Aka, didn't show authority the proper respect. Which is the point.....

You've failed to state what significance that is. I'll give you another shot... what's it mean?

JasperL said:
The original issue was whether the Honor Code ....

Irrelevant.

JasperL said:
We're both speculating....

No, I said I'd wait and see, you speculated.

JasperL · Mar 22, 2015

Ockham said:
You posted the link to the charges... you tell me. What's changed?

Note the use of 'or' - "If any person profanely curses or swears or is intoxicated in public." Which one is he accused of doing?

I never claimed he was in fact, drunk. Where's the link to the breathalyzer? No link? But you claimed he blew clear.... just this morning.... right here:

So where's the verifiable evidence he passed the breathalyzer?

The statements by the VP are the best evidence available. I tend to go with the best available evidence. What is your strategy?

I never said it wasn't common... but yes, it's a crime.

He wasn't charged with this "crime" that I've been unable to find in any statute. Do you have a cite to the VA Code?

It gets worse when the person acts like a spoiled child and resist the very minor ticket and then is charged with two additional misdemeanors for resisting. :lamo I thought college was supposed to make kids smarter... it sure wasn't working on Johnson.

A minor ticket for what charge? He didn't offer a fake ID, wasn't trying to buy alcohol. So what would this ticket have alleged? And the point is "resisting" in this case meant didn't show the proper respect to assholes.

You've failed to state what significance that is. I'll give you another shot... what's it mean?

I'm not sure what you mean. The statute lists a number of variations, and one of them is the use of threats or force to impede an officer. He didn't use threats or force, so presumably impeded them some other way, by not kissing their boots or something... I'm not sure what form this "resistance" took.

No, I said I'd wait and see, you speculated.

At a minimum, you've speculated that he did in fact "resist" the officers. When did you see this 'resistance?' It wasn't on any video, and all we have are the allegations of the ABC agents, and lots of students who contradict those allegations.

faithful_servant · Mar 22, 2015

JasperL said:
Yeah, OK, but that's all beside the point. You're 'betting money' there's a hidden video, then invented a bunch of nefarious reasons why someone unknown is hiding a video that you have conjured up out of thin air.

You say you know some young people and "they" live for this kind of stuff. So therefore the UVa students involved in this incident are like those young people you know and therefore must have recorded the whole thing. It's a HHHHHHHHHHHUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEE and baseless leap......:roll:

...and yet it's nowhere near the leaps being made by those who are accusing the officers. Hypocrisy???

Ockham · Mar 22, 2015

JasperL said:
Note the use of 'or' - "If any person profanely curses or swears or is intoxicated in public." Which one is he accused of doing?

Either or, just as the law reads.

Let me just cut to the chase here - do you have anything new to discuss? Otherwise I'm simply repeating myself.... you've posted no link to the breathalyzer test, you've not answered what "NO THRT/FORCE" means either legally or in context of your opinion... the only thing you're doing is whining about the system which is in place and I don't have any interest in addressing that. So... any new facts? If not, you can go through my previous posts for the answers I've already provided to questions and statements you've already provided.

Somerville · Mar 22, 2015

From the UVa student newspaper, The Cavalier Daily, we can read a bit more about what happened that night

Interactions between third-year College student Martese Johnson and bouncers outside Trinity Irish Pub Tuesday night were cordial and fairly standard, Trinity owner Kevin Badke said in a limited exclusive interview with The Cavalier Daily. Badke said Johnson “seemed sober,” and refuted claims that Trinity’s bouncers were especially antagonistic toward Johnson or treated him differently because of his race.
<snip>
Upon being denied entry, Johnson did not raise his voice and “just seemed disappointed he didn’t get in,” Badke said.

Badke, who was periodically working the door as a bouncer Tuesday night due to a high volume of patrons on St. Patrick’s Day and notification that ABC would be monitoring the establishment, said he personally checked Johnson’s identification. Their interaction was slightly longer than average because Johnson could not provide the correct zip code on his Illinois ID.

So why did the ABC police grab Johnson?

JasperL · Mar 23, 2015

Ockham said:
Either or, just as the law reads.

OK, so it's not even clear he was charged with being drunk. Could be the infraction was cursing or swearing, which we saw on tape. As I said.

Let me just cut to the chase here - do you have anything new to discuss? Otherwise I'm simply repeating myself.... you've posted no link to the breathalyzer test, you've not answered what "NO THRT/FORCE" means either legally or in context of your opinion...

18.2-460 reads in part:

A. If any person without just cause knowingly obstructs ..... any law-enforcement officer...in the performance of his duties as such or fails or refuses without just cause to cease such obstruction when requested to do so..

B. Except as provided in subsection C, any person who, by threats or force, knowingly attempts to intimidate or impede .... any law-enforcement officer

You've read the statute, so I'm unclear what the question is. He isn't accused of using threats or force. So he somehow, without threats or force, obstructed the officers in the performance of their duties. How he "obstructed" them is unclear. Didn't say "Yes SIR!" fast enough? Who the hell knows.....

the only thing you're doing is whining about the system which is in place and I don't have any interest in addressing that. So... any new facts? If not, you can go through my previous posts for the answers I've already provided to questions and statements you've already provided.

I see you have no cite to the VA Code that says it's a crime for a 20 year old to try to enter a bar, as I suspected. Besides, as the Cavalier Daily article points out, it's bar POLICY to only admit those 21 or older on busy nights, not a legal requirement. So, not a crime to try.

Ockham · Mar 23, 2015

JasperL said:
OK, so it's not even clear he was charged with being drunk. Could be the infraction was cursing or swearing, which we saw on tape. As I said.

If you're still confused you could call or email someone in Virginia and I'm sure they can explain it.

Here's a link to help you: VaLegalAid.org - A guide to free and low cost civil legal information and services in Virginia

JasperL · Mar 23, 2015

Ockham said:
If you're still confused you could call or email someone in Virginia and I'm sure they can explain it.

Here's a link to help you: VaLegalAid.org - A guide to free and low cost civil legal information and services in Virginia

Very funny. Maybe you can tell me what his infraction was - drunk OR cursing OR swearing, OR some combination. I also imagine if one of them is to defend Johnson, they'll clarify with the prosecutor which part of the statute he's alleged to have violated. You seem to know - so tell me.

BTW, can the legal aid folks direct me to the statute about it being a crime for a person age 20 to try to enter a bar with a policy of not admitting those under age 21 after 10pm? Or have you conceded you were wrong about that, too?

ReverendHellh0und · Mar 23, 2015

Martese Johnson Was 'Polite and Cordial' Before Arrest, Bar Says - NBC News

Trinity Irish Pub said that Johnson, 20, was denied entry after he gave the wrong answer when a bouncer examined his ID and asked him the ZIP code. The bar's statement quoted its managing owner, Kevin Badke, as saying that Johnson was "a disappointed patron."

The statement characterizes what happened next this way:

Mr. Badke immediately responded that he could not accept it. Mr. Johnson, probably realizing the reason for the error, stated that he had moved. At this point, Mr. Badke and Mr. Johnson had a brief conversation because Mr. Badke is from the south side of Chicago, where Mr. Johnson indicated he was from. In Mr. Badke's opinion, Mr. Johnson did not appear to be intoxicated in the least. Despite the conversation, which was cordial and respectful, Mr. Badke reiterated that he could not permit him to enter. He handed Mr. Johnson his ID back and Mr. Johnson began walking in a north westerly direction up University Avenue. A few moments later, Mr. Badke heard a commotion, turned, and saw Mr. Johnson on the ground about 30 feet further up on University Avenue with ABC agents detaining him.

Uh Oh.......

"There have been reported comments that management of Trinity were belligerent towards Mr. Johnson or that Mr. Johnson was belligerent towards management," the statement said. "Those allegations are patently untrue, as the brief conversation that occurred was polite and cordial."

And then for the REAL RACISM!!!!!!

Alcohol control agents had said that they planned to keep a close eye on the bar on St. Patrick's Day because it was Irish, the statement said.

Those ****in irish!

Ockham · Mar 23, 2015

JasperL said:
Very funny.

It wasn't a joke.

JasperL said:
Maybe you can tell me what his infraction was - drunk OR cursing OR swearing, OR some combination.

Link the breathalyzer results and I'll tell you.

JasperL said:
I also imagine if one of them is to defend Johnson, they'll clarify with the prosecutor which part of the statute he's alleged to have violated. You seem to know - so tell me.

He violated 18.2-460, and 18.2-388. Sorry you forgot already since you posted the actual link to the charges.

JasperL said:
BTW, can the legal aid folks direct me to the statute about it being a crime for a person age 20 to try to enter a bar with a policy of not admitting those under age 21 after 10pm? Or have you conceded you were wrong about that, too?

You should call them and find out.

JasperL · Mar 23, 2015

Ockham said:
It wasn't a joke.

Ok, so not a joke, just silly. I'll ignore.

Link the breathalyzer results and I'll tell you.

The breathalyzer results might tell us what he cannot ultimately be convicted of (tough to convict someone of public drunkenness if he passes a breathalyzer), but it won't help us decide what he was charged with.

He violated 18.2-460, and 18.2-388. Sorry you forgot already since you posted the actual link to the charges.

You're just trolling now. As I've pointed out several times, 18.2-388 is a series of acts separated by OR - cursing OR swearing OR public intoxication. Like me, you don't know which one or more of those acts Johnson allegedly committed. Thanks for clarifying that.

You should call them and find out.

You made this claim - quoting you: "His crime was trying to gain access to a bar being under age..."

So you just made that up and it's not in fact a crime for a 20 year old to try to enter a bar that has a policy of not admitting those under age 21. Got it.

Ockham · Mar 23, 2015

JasperL said:
Ok, so not a joke, just silly. I'll ignore.

And that is why fail.

JasperL said:
The breathalyzer results might tell us what he cannot ultimately be convicted of (tough to convict someone of public drunkenness if he passes a breathalyzer), but it won't help us decide what he was charged with.

So... the link... where is it?

JasperL said:
You're just trolling now. As I've pointed out several times, 18.2-388 is a series of acts separated by OR - cursing OR swearing OR public intoxication. Like me, you don't know which one or more of those acts Johnson allegedly committed. Thanks for clarifying that.

Read the offense. It's in English.

JasperL said:
You made this claim - quoting you: "His crime was trying to gain access to a bar being under age..."

So you just made up that "crime." Got it. Thanks!

No - the drinking age is 21 in Virginia. You can check it yourself.

APIS - State Profiles of Underage Drinking Laws

JasperL · Mar 23, 2015

Ockham said:
So... the link... where is it?

The link is the VP, and the article in Cavalier Daily indicating the bar owners said he didn't appear drunk. What evidence are you relying on that he WAS drunk.

Read the offense. It's in English.

I did, and I grasp the meaning of "or." Apparently you don't. I guess we'll have to move on as the debate assumes at least a first grade level of reading comprehension.

No - the drinking age is 21 in Virginia. You can check it yourself.

So what? You said, "His crime was trying to gain access to a bar being under age..."

Those under age 21 can enter that bar on some nights at any time, and during other nights any time before 10pm. So it's not a crime to try to enter when the bar POLICY is to only admit those 21 or over. The bar by its own account suspends that policy all the time and admits underage people.

Ockham · Mar 23, 2015

JasperL said:
The link is the VP, and the article in Cavalier Daily indicating the bar owners said he didn't appear drunk.

Sorry not good enough. The actual breathalyzer test results will be required.

JasperL said:
I did, and I grasp the meaning of "or." Apparently you don't. I guess we'll have to move on as the debate assumes at least a first grade level of reading comprehension.

So call the link I provided you for free legal advice. What part of that do you still not comprehend. You want me to dial the number for you too?

JasperL said:
So what?

So it supports what I said in post #9:

Ockham in Post #9 said:
Well it happened because he is underage and trying to get into a bar.

So it also means I didn't make it up. So it also means your little accusations are unfounded nonsense. But in posting unfounded nonsense you've been very consistent in this thread. Kudos.

JasperL said:
Those under age 21 can enter that bar on some nights at any time, and during other nights any time before 10pm. So it's not a crime to try to enter when the bar POLICY is to only admit those 21 or over. The bar by its own account suspends that policy all the time and admits underage people.

Because that's what he was doing on St. Patricks Day is going to a bar to NOT drink. Don't insult my intelligence please... and maybe you should call the bar, let the owner know you're not a lawyer but want to complain about their bouncers because they didn't let Martese Johnson into the bar before 10 pm on St. Paddy's day because it was perfectly legal for Martese to enter.

Let me know what they say: Trinity Irish Pub :lamo

JasperL · Mar 23, 2015

Ockham said:
Sorry not good enough. The actual breathalyzer test results will be required.

OK. I'll bet 10 cents he doesn't register as drunk.

So call the link I provided you for free legal advice. What part of that do you still not comprehend. You want me to dial the number for you too?

I don't need a lawyer to tell me that a series of acts separated by or mean that a person charged under that statute might have violated any one, two or three of those charges. So when the statute reads cursing OR swearing OR public intoxication, it's not clear to me which of these he's alleged to have violated. Apparently this is beyond your grasp - you can't grasp the use of "or" in a statute.

So it supports what I said in post #9:

So it also means I didn't make it up. So it also means your little accusations are unfounded nonsense. But in posting unfounded nonsense you've been very consistent in this thread. Kudos.

You said it was a crime, I said BS, you repeated that assertion. You were wrong. It's not a crime to try to enter a bar while underage. Period. If you've got a link to some statute, cite it. Otherwise, keep beating this dead horse - you were mistaken.

Because that's what he was doing on St. Patricks Day is going to a bar to NOT drink. Don't insult my intelligence please... and maybe you should call the bar, let the owner know you're not a lawyer but want to complain about their bouncers because they didn't let Martese Johnson into the bar before 10 pm on St. Paddy's day because it was perfectly legal for Martese to enter.

I don't drink at all but go to 'bars' all the time. I have no idea if he intended to drink or not, and neither do you. But whether he did intend to or not is a moot point - trying to get into that bar at age 20 IS NOT A CRIME. And the police can't charge him with a thought crime of maybe if he got in intending to perhaps!! order a green beer.

And your stuff about me calling the bar is just more trolling. They're perfectly free to set their bar POLICY to whatever they want it to be. I don't care what the bar POLICY was. You said trying to violate BAR POLICY is a criminal act. That's wrong.

Let me know what they say: Trinity Irish Pub :lamo

I think we've about beat this to death. Your trolling isn't even fun to respond to anymore.

Ockham · Mar 23, 2015

JasperL said:
OK. I'll bet 10 cents he doesn't register as drunk.

Do you even know what the legal limit of "drunk" is in Virginia? Somehow I don't think you do.

JasperL said:
You said it was a crime, I said BS, you repeated that assertion. You were wrong.

That's a lie... and I posted a link with all of the drinking laws in it. The drinking age is 21 years of age.

If you must lie, at least do it with some intelligence. Let me know what the Irish Pub says though won't ya?

JasperL · Mar 23, 2015

Ockham said:
Do you even know what the legal limit of "drunk" is in Virginia? Somehow I don't think you do.

Why don't you tell me?

That's a lie :shock:.. and I posted a link with all of the drinking laws in it. The drinking age is 21 years of age.

LMAO. You left a written record!

Post #156 - Ockham: "His crime was trying to gain access to a bar being under age..."

Post #157 - JasperL: "It's a crime to TRY to enter a bar while under age 21? Holy cow - almost everyone I knew including me committed CRIMINAL ACTS in college!!!"

Post #158 - Ockham: "I never said it wasn't common... but yes, it's a crime"

So what did I lie about? :doh And sure, you posted a link with some laws about underage drinking. None of them say it's a crime to try to enter a bar with a POLICY to only admit those 21 or older after 10pm, on some busy nights, but admits underage people on other nights.....

If you must lie, at least do it with some intelligence. Let me know what the Irish Pub says though won't ya?

If you're going to call someone a liar, don't leave a written record that proves they're telling the truth! :lamo

Ockham · Mar 24, 2015

JasperL said:
Why don't you tell me?

Of course - anything to educate the masses:

Under 21	.02%
21 or older	.05%

Will Virginia Lower the Legal Limit from 0.08 to 0.05 for DUI Cases? - Albo & Oblon, LLP - Attorneys at Law - Washington DC Area

JasperL said:
LMAO. You left a written record!

Yep and it's still true. Johnson attempting to get into the bar being underage was the catalyst for ABC going after him.

JasperL said:
So what did I lie about? :doh And sure, you posted a link with some laws about underage drinking.

You claimed I made up the law of entering a bar under 21. You claimed I made up charges ... I've posted verifiable facts and links with them. \

JasperL said:
None of them say it's a crime to try to enter a bar with a POLICY to only admit those 21 or older after 10pm, on some busy nights, but admits underage people on other nights.....

Did he have a parent or guardian with him? No. Again, don't insult my intelligence - he was trying to get into the bar on St. Pattys day to drink. Suggesting otherwise is beyond insipid.

JasperL said:
If you're going to call someone a liar, don't leave a written record that proves they're telling the truth! :lamo

There's no if's about it. I did and I stand by it. If you want to have a civilized discussion I'd suggest your posts rely less on emotion and more on facts.

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