Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

ReverendHellh0und · Mar 20, 2015

JasperL said:
This isn't a court of law. I'm assuming the VP is faithfully representing the results of the breathalyzer test, and there's
no reason to believe he'd make that up. It's the simplest of things for the cops to correct that.

No reason?

The evidence he didn't use violence against the cops is he was not charged with using violence against the cops. He was specifically NOT charged with use of violence. That would seem to be controlling until we learn something to dispute what he was charged with......

cops have discretion.

JasperL · Mar 20, 2015

Ockham said:
This incident didn't occur on U.Va property but off campus, so it's still irrelevant.

I don't think that's relevant - he clearly and emphatically identified himself as a UVa student, near campus. He's deliberately brought this into the jurisdiction of the committee he serves on.

They didn't point anything out as it applies to Johnson. Both are misdemeanors and therefore if the accused is not cooperative, he should be restrained, which is what the video shows and the facts so far, support

The document says "NO THRT/FORCE"

Because my example is at least reasonable, whereas your examples are extremist nonsense.

But he wasn't charged with your examples - you're making baseless speculations of potential crimes he might be charged with later.

Perhaps that applies to you but not to me. I worked from home today, it snowed all day here. I have responsibilities and the last time I got drunk and did something this stupid I was in the Army. But even then the last thing I'd do is fight the police and scream "racist" at the top of my lungs even while drunk. I'm a quiet drunk you see.

So if the cops detain you on a BS charge, you'd act like a sheep.... Got it, and you expect the rest of us to do so as well? It is a possibility at least that the cops misbehaved, and if they did, I don't have a problem with vigorously contesting that, especially since he protested that without the use of force. That's our right as free people.

Yes there are police procedural issues and training problems in lots of places in the US which cause lots of problems. Rev tends to post some of those and the issues he shows on video and have in the past, I've been appalled seeing. One where a older gentleman with Dealer tags gets pulled over by a cop and gets tazed - however in that case, the cop was 100% in the wrong. The premise for pulling the guy over was for an outdated inspection sticker (a Non moving vehicle violation - not a misdemeanor) where the cop then pulls the attitude and illegally slams the guy on the hood and ground tazes him and then arrests him. The funny thing here is, the cop didn't know a car with dealer tags doesn't need a valid inspection sticker (this happened in TX).
The result of that incident (sorry for taking this off topic but I'll try to bring it back around) was the Cop was fired after an IA review and may face charges himself.

The purpose of me bring that up was I don't jump to conclusions often as I treat each and every incident separately. Not all cops are bad, not all cops are badly trained and we tend to hear about the bad one's. In the case of Johnson, I don't see bad cops. In the case of Vasquez, I saw a person who had no business being a cop and the public is safer with him seeking employment elsewhere.

I guess we can agree to disagree on this one, which is fine. Neither of us knows the full truth here, but based on what I know, the ABC agents and/or the cops and/or both failed in their jobs, IMO.

JasperL · Mar 20, 2015

ReverendHellh0und said:
No reason?

Right. There is no reason to lie about something that is so easily debunked, and will be debunked soon if what he said was false. Either the breathalyzer showed he was drunk or it didn't, but it will be public knowledge soon enough.

cops have discretion.

Not sure what that means. Evidence he used force while resisting arrest is at a bare minimum being charged with using force. That he was NOT charged with threat of violence or force is simply evidence that he did not. This is simple 1+1 = 2 stuff.

Ockham · Mar 20, 2015

JasperL said:
I don't think that's relevant - he clearly and emphatically identified himself as a UVa student, near campus. He's deliberately brought this into the jurisdiction of the committee he serves on.

It doesn't matter where he was from or which committee's he's on at school. This wasn't school therefore, irrelevant.

JasperL said:
The document says "NO THRT/FORCE"

What document? And what does "NO THRT/FORCE" mean and in what context?

JasperL said:
But he wasn't charged with your examples - you're making baseless speculations of potential crimes he might be charged with later.

It's totally based in the law and could be added as a reasonable charge given the circumstances, and I only gave one example. Your examples were pure hyperbole though.

JasperL said:
So if the cops detain you on a BS charge, you'd act like a sheep.... Got it, and you expect the rest of us to do so as well?

I'd let my lawyer handle it. That's what lawyers do. And why would I want to injure a cop - he's doing his job, I'll let my lawyer do his job and my job is to keep my mouth shut. If it's a BS charge, I'm out in a few hours. If I resit arrest, I'm staying in jail. It's all about being smart and not stupid. What you "got it" is you advocate being stupid. Cool. I support your right to resist arrest and get roughed up, charged with more things and spending some time in jail. Have fun doing it.

JasperL said:
It is a possibility at least that the cops misbehaved, and if they did, I don't have a problem with vigorously contesting that, especially since he protested that without the use of force. That's our right as free people.

No evidence shows they have "misbehaved". The investigation will I'm sure exonerate them and Johnson will be charged and will have to go to court.

JasperL said:
I guess we can agree to disagree on this one, which is fine. Neither of us knows the full truth here, but based on what I know, the ABC agents and/or the cops and/or both failed in their jobs, IMO.

No reasonable person would come to that conclusion given the limited amount of evidence available. But if that's what you want to believe, fine.

If you want to see bad cops - go to this thread..... I actually just posted the very unfulfilled follow up result.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/law-a...-gun-76-year-old-over-inspection-sticker.html

JasperL · Mar 20, 2015

Ockham said:
It doesn't matter where he was from or which committee's he's on at school. This wasn't school therefore, irrelevant.

Not true, from the UVa Code of Honor website: The Code of Honor, University of Virginia

Today students at the University make a commitment not to lie, cheat, or steal within Charlottesville, Albemarle County, or where they represent themselves as University students in order to gain the trust of others. Because of this commitment, there's a strong degree of trust among the various members of the University community. Students are also expected to conduct themselves with integrity and are presumed honorable until proven otherwise.

So he was bound by it already, but when he proclaimed himself a student, and therefore subject to the Honor Code, he definitely made himself subject to expulsion if he's found to have lied.

What document? And what does "NO THRT/FORCE" mean and in what context?

The warrant, and when they cited the crime he was alleged to have committed.

It's totally based in the law and could be added as a reasonable charge given the circumstances, and I only gave one example. Your examples were pure hyperbole though.

Could be, but there is no evidence he will be.

I'd let my lawyer handle it. That's what lawyers do. And why would I want to injure a cop - he's doing his job, I'll let my lawyer do his job and my job is to keep my mouth shut. If it's a BS charge, I'm out in a few hours. If I resit arrest, I'm staying in jail. It's all about being smart and not stupid. What you "got it" is you advocate being stupid. Cool. I support your right to resist arrest and get roughed up, charged with more things and spending some time in jail. Have fun doing it.

OK, that's good advice. But why is that a reasonable expectation - is a free person obligated to behave like a sheep when dealing with the police?

No evidence shows they have "misbehaved". The investigation will I'm sure exonerate them and Johnson will be charged and will have to go to court.

You're sure.... We'll see I guess.

No reasonable person would come to that conclusion given the limited amount of evidence available. But if that's what you want to believe, fine.

I disagree, and it's funny that you're asserting any opinion other than yours is unreasonable.

sangha · Mar 20, 2015

americanwoman said:
Actually the Virginia ABC has admitted injuries occurred during the arrest per an article from 2 days ago

The Cavalier Daily :: University student, Honor Committee member Martese Johnson arrested

Please stop confusing her with the facts.

Ockham · Mar 20, 2015

JasperL said:
Not true, from the UVa Code of Honor website: The Code of Honor, University of Virginia

The UVA Code of Honor is not admissible in court and this incident did not occur on UVA premises. Just like Johnsons chess club membership card is just as irrelevant.

JasperL said:
So he was bound by it already, but when he proclaimed himself a student, and therefore subject to the Honor Code, he definitely made himself subject to expulsion if he's found to have lied.

He was not bound by any such nonsense.

JasperL said:
The warrant, and when they cited the crime he was alleged to have committed.

There is no warrant issues at the time of his arrest. What are you talking about? Link this warrant.....

JasperL said:
OK, that's good advice. But why is that a reasonable expectation - is a free person obligated to behave like a sheep when dealing with the police?

If they wish to not spend time in jail or be injured. If they wish to spend time in jail and get injured fighting the police ... they can be non-sheep if that makes them feel like a man. One has to pick their battles and where they want to fight ... read Sun Tzu.

JasperL said:
You're sure.... We'll see I guess.

Nothing so far. If something comes out that shows they did act with force not commensurate with the situation they still may just be suspended. As you can see in that Victoria Texas case, the cop actually assaulted an tazed a 76 year old man for absolutely no legal reason and was only fired.

JasperL said:
I disagree, and it's funny that you're asserting any opinion other than yours is unreasonable.

If you had a reasonable view I'd state it was not my view but still valid. You don't have a reasonable view given the known evidence.

Napoleon · Mar 20, 2015

faithful_servant said:
Why not wait until we know the whole story before jumping to a conclusion??

Because the fact that this happened at all is outrageous and ABC shouldn't even exist. It still amazes me that we can ship someone to war at the age of 17 but if somebody looks younger than 21 and wants a beer the State dispatches der SS to slice his head open and cart him off to jail.

JasperL · Mar 20, 2015

Ockham said:
The UVA Code of Honor is not admissible in court and this incident did not occur on UVA premises. Just like Johnsons chess club membership card is just as irrelevant.

What I've said is he'll get expelled from school. Whether he's guilty or not, and therefore dismissed/expelled isn't tried in a court but by the UVa Honor Committee...you know, the committee Johnson was a member of.

He was not bound by any such nonsense.

I just quoted you from the relevant source. I can cite the bylaws as well - I've already done so in this thread. It says the same thing - he is bound by the Honor Code and faces expulsion from UVa if convicted of lying in Charlottesville or the county. He explicitly brought his acts within the Honor Code by identifying himself as a student. It's just fact - no sense in beating your head against proof you're wrong. At least, if you want to continue to do that, cite some evidence....

There is no warrant issues at the time of his arrest. What are you talking about? Link this warrant.....

The Cavalier Daily :: Johnson's warrant of arrest shows two misdemeanor charges

If they wish to not spend time in jail or be injured. If they wish to spend time in jail and get injured fighting the police ... they can be non-sheep if that makes them feel like a man. One has to pick their battles and where they want to fight ... read Sun Tzu.

OK, so we must meekly submit to authority. Great.... We really need an "authoritarian" lean....

Nothing so far. If something comes out that shows they did act with force not commensurate with the situation they still may just be suspended. As you can see in that Victoria Texas case, the cop actually assaulted an tazed a 76 year old man for absolutely no legal reason and was only fired.

OK, and that he was only fired demonstrates what? I'm missing the point.

If you had a reasonable view I'd state it was not my view but still valid. You don't have a reasonable view given the known evidence.

As I said, I disagree and so do many others. That's fine. I don't think your view is reasonable, so we're looking at it differently, which happens in life when faced with uncertainty.

Skeptic Bob · Mar 20, 2015

When I used to try to get into a bar underage the bouncer would tell me to take a hike and then...nothing. That's it. No cops. No blood. I just wasn't allowed in.

Ockham · Mar 20, 2015

JasperL said:
What I've said is he'll get expelled from school. Whether he's guilty or not, and therefore dismissed/expelled isn't tried in a court but by the UVa Honor Committee...you know, the committee Johnson was a member of.

Him getting expelled is irrelevant to the court. My view is of the justice system which he is now part. His school or getting expelled from it is the least of his worries.

JasperL said:
I just quoted you from the relevant source.

Still irrelevant.

The Cavalier Daily :: Johnson's warrant of arrest shows two misdemeanor charges I see - otherwise known as the police paperwork done after the arrest. Thanks for the link.

JasperL said:
OK, so we must meekly submit to authority. Great.... We really need an "authoritarian" lean....

As I said if you want to spend time in jail for fighting cops and getting injured in the process - I fully support you doing that. Smarter people do smarter things as I've already described.

JasperL said:
OK, and that he was only fired demonstrates what? I'm missing the point.

That demonstrates ACTUAL police abuse and assault versus the FAKE police abuse and assault being claimed in this, the Johnson case.

JasperL said:
As I said, I disagree and so do many others. That's fine. I don't think your view is reasonable, so we're looking at it differently, which happens in life when faced with uncertainty.

I think your view of what is reasonable is skewed by baggage or by a misrepresentation of other cases. You brought up the Brown case - the accusations of racism and police brutality in that case was shown to be false. Reasonable people understand that - unreasonable people cling on to the belief of "Hands up don't shoot". :shrug: Believe what you want though - it's a free country.

American · Mar 20, 2015

tres borrachos said:
Apparently it's enough to need surgery, all of a sudden.

How come they didn't do surgery on my 15 year old when he fell and cut his head? Some stitches, a few pain pills, and we were on our way. I feel slighted.

A plastic surgeon probably would have use 10 stitches to sew a reasonably small cut. Head wounds tend to look worse than they are.

JasperL · Mar 21, 2015

Ockham said:
Him getting expelled is irrelevant to the court. My view is of the justice system which he is now part. His school or getting expelled from it is the least of his worries.

Well, after being shown that the Honor Code does apply to Johnson both on and off campus, and therefore specifically in this case, you've moved the goal posts. And he has no legal worries - the BS charges will either be dismissed or otherwise go away. They're misdemeanors anyway.

Still irrelevant.

To what? If he lies, he can be charged with a violation of the Honor Code and expelled from UVa. It's just fact.

The Cavalier Daily :: Johnson's warrant of arrest shows two misdemeanor charges I see - otherwise known as the police paperwork done after the arrest. Thanks for the link.

That paperwork lists the charges.... I'm confused.

As I said if you want to spend time in jail for fighting cops and getting injured in the process - I fully support you doing that. Smarter people do smarter things as I've already described.

Right, smart people obey authority and don't protest.... like sheep.

That demonstrates ACTUAL police abuse and assault versus the FAKE police abuse and assault being claimed in this, the Johnson case.

Maybe if you were on the other end of the "FAKE" police abuse, or someone you cared for, you'd have a different view. I'm sure I would. Most people with any self respect would as well.

I think your view of what is reasonable is skewed by baggage or by a misrepresentation of other cases. You brought up the Brown case - the accusations of racism and police brutality in that case was shown to be false. Reasonable people understand that - unreasonable people cling on to the belief of "Hands up don't shoot". :shrug: Believe what you want though - it's a free country.

I didn't bring up the "Brown case" but the extensive, 100+ page DOJ report on the practices of the Ferguson PD, which included pretty extensive discussion of them beginning with a BS charge, then laying other BS charges on top of the first BS charge when the person being charged did not behave like obedient sheep. My favorite was the FPD charging a person for property damage for BLEEDING ON THE CLOTHES OF POLICE OFFICERS WHO BEAT HIM, for no reason (they had arrested the wrong man). He prolly should have just saluted them properly, kissed their shiny jack boots, and maybe they'd have not charged him for the damage to their uniforms....

Story here in case you're interested. The Day Ferguson Cops Were Caught in a Bloody Lie - The Daily Beast

JasperL · Mar 21, 2015

BrewerBob said:
When I used to try to get into a bar underage the bouncer would tell me to take a hike and then...nothing. That's it. No cops. No blood. I just wasn't allowed in.

That makes no sense - police acting rationally and appropriately under the circumstances. Weird.

The Mark · Mar 21, 2015

Ockham said:
Exactly - I'd be very interested to see the video of the cops beating Johnson.

That's an odd interest, but to each his own I guess.

ReverendHellh0und · Mar 21, 2015

JasperL said:
Right. There is no reason to lie about something that is so easily debunked, and will be debunked soon if what he said was false. Either the breathalyzer showed he was drunk or it didn't, but it will be public knowledge soon enough.

Not sure what that means. Evidence he used force while resisting arrest is at a bare minimum being charged with using force. That he was NOT charged with threat of violence or force is simply evidence that he did not. This is simple 1+1 = 2 stuff.

This is not how life works. Ever get a speeding ticket? Ever have the cop reduce the speed you were actually going?

JasperL · Mar 21, 2015

ReverendHellh0und said:
This is not how life works. Ever get a speeding ticket? Ever have the cop reduce the speed you were actually going?

I'm aware that cops are not forced to allege the maximum charge allowable. But if they write a ticket for doing 65 in a 50, it's not a fair assumption the person was doing 80. The evidence shows the person was doing 65. Maybe some facts emerge that indicate the person was doing 80 but until then the only reasonable conclusion is the person was doing 65, the speed marked on the ticket.

The police arrested a person and had the choice to indicate with or without threat or force. When they indicated "NO THRT/FORCE" that means something important, that the police don't have evidence to charge/prove Johnson used threats or force.

faithful_servant · Mar 21, 2015

JasperL said:
But the kids have to assume that the encounter is going to end very badly before they throw him to the ground, and anticipate that, and start recording as soon as the cops or ABC agents approach him. The safe assumption is he'll be escorted out, told to go on about his night, but not in that bar. Who would EXPECT that he'd be thrown to the ground, bloodied, and arrested, and they'd NEED video evidence of that? He wasn't even doing anything wrong - he showed a valid ID and was denied entry. The reasonable expectation is that's the end of it.

Kids at that age don't make videos for evidence, they make videos to make videos. I have quite a few young people in my circle of friends that are around that age and they live for this kind of stuff.

Fenton · Mar 21, 2015

Ryriena said:
I too like to see this beatting, however, from the wounds I would wonder what caused that severe of an injury that looks like a serious head wound from the blood splatter on his head. :shock:

Superficial head woumds DO bleed allot, but that doesn't make them " serious "

Stiches are superficial by definition and your post are seriously dishonest.

JasperL · Mar 21, 2015

faithful_servant said:
Kids at that age don't make videos for evidence, they make videos to make videos. I have quite a few young people in my circle of friends that are around that age and they live for this kind of stuff.

Yeah, OK, but that's all beside the point. You're 'betting money' there's a hidden video, then invented a bunch of nefarious reasons why someone unknown is hiding a video that you have conjured up out of thin air.

You say you know some young people and "they" live for this kind of stuff. So therefore the UVa students involved in this incident are like those young people you know and therefore must have recorded the whole thing. It's a HHHHHHHHHHHUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEE and baseless leap......:roll:

ReverendHellh0und · Mar 21, 2015

JasperL said:
I'm aware that cops are not forced to allege the maximum charge allowable. But if they write a ticket for doing 65 in a 50, it's not a fair assumption the person was doing 80. The evidence shows the person was doing 65. Maybe some facts emerge that indicate the person was doing 80 but until then the only reasonable conclusion is the person was doing 65, the speed marked on the ticket.

What?

They knock it down as a "favor".

The police arrested a person and had the choice to indicate with or without threat or force. When they indicated "NO THRT/FORCE" that means something important, that the police don't have evidence to charge/prove Johnson used threats or force.

You don't know how this works.

perhaps they knew he was a college kid and didn't want to ruin his life over a mistake.

JasperL · Mar 21, 2015

ReverendHellh0und said:
What?

They knock it down as a "favor".

Sometimes, sure. More often they don't. And your point is what?

You don't know how this works.

perhaps they knew he was a college kid and didn't want to ruin his life over a mistake.

You're making baseless speculations. They might have knocked it down, or more likely, the kid did NOT use "THRT/FORCE." That is what the evidence indicates at this point.

Ockham · Mar 21, 2015

JasperL said:
Well, after being shown that the Honor Code does apply to Johnson both on and off campus, and therefore specifically in this case, you've moved the goal posts. And he has no legal worries - the BS charges will either be dismissed or otherwise go away. They're misdemeanors anyway.

To what? If he lies, he can be charged with a violation of the Honor Code and expelled from UVa. It's just fact.

The UVA honor code does not apply to Virginia law. Please show me where in the Virginia Penal Code the UVA honor code is listed. When you don't answer and / or cannot address it, you will then understand why it's irrelevant and has been nor for the past 10 posts I've replied to you. If you continue with the Honor Code nonsense I'll simply delete it and ignore it as I've now said it's irrelevant and it will continue to be irrelevant.

JasperL said:
That paperwork lists the charges.... I'm confused.

I've noticed.

JasperL said:
Right, smart people obey authority and don't protest.... like sheep.

You want to be stupid and resist arrest, that's your right. Please by all means do that and let us all know how it works out for ya. :lamo

JasperL said:
Maybe if you were on the other end of the "FAKE" police abuse, or someone you cared for, you'd have a different view. I'm sure I would. Most people with any self respect would as well.

I doubt it, as the people I care about don't break the law. If there was actual abuse I'd support and help sue and take those people down. If this happened say to my nephew and not Johnson, I'd probably tell him he was an idiot and to straighten up as well as tell him he was lucky he wasn't shot.

JasperL said:
I didn't bring up the "Brown case" but the extensive, 100+ page DOJ report on the practices of the Ferguson PD, which included pretty extensive discussion of them beginning with a BS charge, then laying other BS charges on top of the first BS charge when the person being charged did not behave like obedient sheep. My favorite was the FPD charging a person for property damage for BLEEDING ON THE CLOTHES OF POLICE OFFICERS WHO BEAT HIM, for no reason (they had arrested the wrong man). He prolly should have just saluted them properly, kissed their shiny jack boots, and maybe they'd have not charged him for the damage to their uniforms....

You brought up Ferguson, I brought up how the accusations of racism and "hands up don't shoot" was based on a lie, just like the accusations of racism by many now are a lie. :shrug:

Dig deep enough in any police force and you'll find something someone did wrong.

Ockham · Mar 21, 2015

The Mark said:
That's an odd interest, but to each his own I guess.

An interest in the truth shouldn't be odd...

The Mark · Mar 21, 2015

Ockham said:
An interest in the truth shouldn't be odd...

That was an attempt at a joke about you being interested in a video of police beating johnson....

But it's dead now, if it ever lived.

Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

ReverendHellh0und

I don't respect you.

JasperL

JasperL

Ockham

Noblesse oblige

JasperL

sangha

Ockham

Noblesse oblige

Napoleon

JasperL

Skeptic Bob

Ockham

Noblesse oblige

American

Trump Grump Whisperer

JasperL

JasperL

The Mark

Sporadic insanity normal.

ReverendHellh0und

I don't respect you.

JasperL

faithful_servant

Fenton

JasperL

ReverendHellh0und

I don't respect you.

JasperL

Ockham

Noblesse oblige

Ockham

Noblesse oblige

The Mark

Sporadic insanity normal.