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Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

Ockham said:
Who's lawyer - HIS lawyer? Of course he would say that.... is there a different source for that like the police who would use the readings and add it to the arrest record?
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It wasn't even his lawyer who said it. It was someone at UVA who said it. Somebody whose title is VP of Diversity or something.

Maybe it's true and he was sober as a judge. At this point, nobody knows anything. Doesn't stop people from jumping to conclusions though.
 
JasperL said:
I'm not sure what's true, but here's one report: Beating of UVA student prompts call to disempower alcohol officers | Reuters



So it's a VP at UVa making that claim. He could be mistaken, I don't know - haven't seen any evidence either way.
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it's hearsay, and bad hearsay at that, irresponsible by "VP for diversity".... he has no idea.



I'm not sure what scenario indicates these cops handled this correctly. It's possible, I guess, but I can't imagine a classroom where the instructor says this is the right way to deal with a student in a college town turned away from a bar because he's underage and MIGHT have a fake ID.
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unless that student became pugilistic and belligerent, and if that's what happened, then this shows thier restraint, not thier abuse.
 
tres borrachos said:
I'm not suggesting that all encounters are recorded. I'm also not the one who is relying on the recording which happened after he was already injured as proof that the cops brutalized him.
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I'm not relying on that video either.

Okay, they "allege". Great. Let's see it. And by the way, it's obvious why I said that. Nobody on here knows what happened. We weren't there. I don't know any more than you know. I'm not the one who is stating what happened there. You are.
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I'm giving opinions like everyone else, including those defending the cops.

Can you show me where he can get expelled from UVA for lying? Link or something?
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Sure: Governing Documents | University of Virginia Honor Committee

You'll have to look at the bylaws, but upon a guilty verdict, dismissal is the immediate consequence. Page 28 of the bylaws:

I. Effect of Guilty Verdicts and “LAGS”
1. Guilty Verdicts. If a guilty verdict is rendered, the student’s status becomes that of a “dismissed student,” immediately upon the rendering of such verdict, and the Committee will so notify the Registrar. In all cases (including cases in which an Expedited Appeal is filed), the date of dismissal shall be the date on which the guilty verdict was rendered.
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Ockham said:
Only in bizzaro world - not in the United States court of law. I see you don't know much about the law. It's okay - an easy mistake to make.
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Wrong, there are processes that come into play before it gets to a "court of law". If an investigation concludes that there's enough evidence of wrong doing to get a grand jury to indict on probable cause, a much lower bar than needed in a pellet court to convict, then we could see this in a court of law. I consider the photo evidence of probable cause.
 
tres borrachos said:
It wasn't even his lawyer who said it. It was someone at UVA who said it. Somebody whose title is VP of Diversity or something.

Maybe it's true and he was sober as a judge. At this point, nobody knows anything. Doesn't stop people from jumping to conclusions though.
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It could be he was sober - at this point we don't know. I'm going to go search for a public arrest record and see what if anything is available.....
 
Montecresto said:
Wrong, there are processes that come into play before it gets to a "court of law". If an investigation concludes that there's enough evidence of wrong doing to get a grand jury to indict on probable cause, a much lower bar than needed in a pellet court to convict, then we could see this in a court of law. I consider the photo evidence of probable cause.
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Did the investigation conclude? And the DA can change the charge or add charges up to and even while the court case is being heard.... depending on the evidence found.
 
Deuce said:
Correct. Because if he was white and subject to police brutality, an investigation would start immediately and not require public outcry to prompt it.
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Bull****. Plain and simple.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
it's hearsay, and bad hearsay at that, irresponsible by "VP for diversity".... he has no idea.
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Why do you assume he has no idea? I'd think a VP at UVa could get something as simple as a breathalyzer test of a student without any trouble at all in a college town. What's 'hearsay' is assuming he was drunk. What is YOUR evidence of that unless you have the results of the breathalyzer?

unless that student became pugilistic and belligerent, and if that's what happened, then this shows thier restraint, not thier abuse.
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I'd guess if he became "pugilistic" they'd have charged him with that, but they didn't - they noted NO use of force in the arrest documents. So the evidence indicates he didn't use any violence at all. He might have been "belligerent" as I expect you'd be if the cops detained you on some BS charge.
 
Ockham said:
Did the investigation conclude? And the DA can change the charge or add charges up to and even while the court case is being heard.... depending on the evidence found.
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No, and yes of course.
 
JasperL said:
I'm not relying on that video either.



I'm giving opinions like everyone else, including those defending the cops.



Sure: Governing Documents | University of Virginia Honor Committee

You'll have to look at the bylaws, but upon a guilty verdict, dismissal is the immediate consequence. Page 28 of the bylaws:
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Who's defending the cops? There's nothing to defend, just like there's nothing to convict. You've decided the cops are guilty of something based on no evidence. Some people prefer to wait until there are facts to look at before deciding what the "truth" is.

Page 28 doesn't say that as a member of the Honor Committee he can be expelled from UVA for lying. Those are the bylaws that cover all UVA Students. You seem very taken by the fact that he's a Member of the Honor Committee, as if being on it means he couldn't possibly do anything wrong. That isn't true. He could probably lose his full scholarship for drinking, too. Let's hope he didn't drink anything.
 
Ockham said:
Oh... so I wasn't wrong then.... :giggle:
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Your very wrong on your dismissal of the photograph. It could easily be seen by a grand jury as probable cause of wrong doing. Remember, grand jury's don't convict. But their indictment would pitch it to a trial.
 
Ockham said:
Who's lawyer - HIS lawyer? Of course he would say that.... is there a different source for that like the police who would use the readings and add it to the arrest record?
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You're entitled to assume he's drunk based on what? The COPS? Of course THEY'D say that.....

Not quite accurate, there were two counts not one. My own source in the OP cites:

"Johnson was charged on two counts: obstruction of justice without force, and public swearing or intoxication, Charlottesville General District Court records show."
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Which one of those justifies the use of force against him?

The video doesn't show the crime only the restraint, beligerence and resistance. If it had the crime on it we wouldn't be having this discussion and this would probably be edited for a "COPS" special on television.
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There was no crime except the 'obstruction of justice without force' and swearing/drunkenness. What other crime would be on the tape? And if you're taken down for nothing (let's assume that for a moment), are you obligated to behave like a sheep, perhaps thank the cops for not tazing/shooting you?

I would have went with resisting arrest, causing a public nuisance, drunk and disorderly... something along those lines but hey - whatever floats your boat.
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It's interesting. He's not charged with an actual crime except for protesting the cops when he was detained for doing nothing wrong. This kind of thing is what was alleged in Ferguson. The cops make a BS 'arrest' then add a bunch of layers of charges when the person objects to the BS arrest. I'm really not clear how that kind of behavior flies with libertarianism, conservatism, or liberalism/progressives.
 
Montecresto said:
Your very wrong on your dismissal of the photograph. It could easily be seen by a grand jury as probable cause of wrong doing. Remember, grand jury's don't convict. But their indictment would pitch it to a trial.
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Standing on it's own it would not be enough. The actual injury, testimony by the emergency medic and hospital physician would testify head injuries tend to bleed more than injuries in other areas of the body, and if there was a blood alcohol level that alcohol in the blood has a thinning effect which could address the bleeding. The injury itself is factual as would be testimony by witnesses and the police that no "beating" took place. It's one piece of circumstantial evidence that doesn't say much.
 
tres borrachos said:
Who's defending the cops? There's nothing to defend, just like there's nothing to convict. You've decided the cops are guilty of something based on no evidence. Some people prefer to wait until there are facts to look at before deciding what the "truth" is.
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OK, that's fine....

Page 28 doesn't say that as a member of the Honor Committee he can be expelled from UVA for lying. Those are the bylaws that cover all UVA Students.
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This is another patented tres borrachos rathole. Right, anyone can be expelled for lying, and as a member of the committee that hears those cases, he knows better than most the penalties.... You asked for evidence, I provided it, now you're splitting hairs. Typical.

You seem very taken by the fact that he's a Member of the Honor Committee, as if being on it means he couldn't possibly do anything wrong. That isn't true. He could probably lose his full scholarship for drinking, too. Let's hope he didn't drink anything.
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He has an exemplary record as a human being and as a student leader. That's the entire point. Of course that doesn't mean he can't possibly do anything wrong - I never asserted that. It's less likely that a person with his record randomly decided to start swearing at the cops for no reason at all other than he hates cops or chose that moment to be an asshole. His history is one of respecting authority, not acting like a juvenile delinquent.
 
JasperL said:
OK, that's fine....



This is another patented tres borrachos rathole. Right, anyone can be expelled for lying, and as a member of the committee that hears those cases, he knows better than most the penalties.... You asked for evidence, I provided it, now you're splitting hairs. Typical.



He has an exemplary record as a human being and as a student leader. That's the entire point. Of course that doesn't mean he can't possibly do anything wrong - I never asserted that. It's less likely that a person with his record randomly decided to start swearing at the cops for no reason at all other than he hates cops or chose that moment to be an asshole. His history is one of respecting authority, not acting like a juvenile delinquent.
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An exemplary record as a human being and student leader. And? Most 20 year olds have exemplary records as human beings. Does that make cops guilty of something? And do 20 year olds scream "You ****ing racists" a lot?

And yes, any UVA Student can get expelled for lying according to the Honor Code. So in other words, him being on The Honor Committee isn't relevant (except to you). As a student of UVA, he would know that.
 
JasperL said:
You're entitled to assume he's drunk based on what? The COPS? Of course THEY'D say that.....
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Based on the charges but it's not yet known if there was an actual BAL test - we shall wait and see. And yes, COPS normally don't lie, as when they do and they're caught, they lose credibility within their own department and the charges will be dismissed. Unless of course you're accusing the COPS of manufacturing evidence in this case - to whit I would request you to provide verifiable evidence of such.... which I already know you do not have. See how that works?

JasperL said:
Which one of those justifies the use of force against him?
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You mean the one you left out on purpose or the one you mentioned... hmmm... both depending on the accused demeanor and attitude. Just to clarify let me read to you what those two charges actual entail according to the State of Virginia:

VA Penal Code said:
§ 18.2-409. Resisting or obstructing execution of legal process.

Every person acting jointly or in combination with any other person to resist or obstruct the execution of any legal process shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

(Code 1950, § 18.1-254.6; 1968, c. 460; 1975, cc. 14, 15.)
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Virginia Penal Code said:
§ 18.2-388. Profane swearing and intoxication in public; penalty; transportation of public inebriates to detoxification center.

If any person profanely curses or swears or is intoxicated in public, whether such intoxication results from alcohol, narcotic drug or other intoxicant or drug of whatever nature, he shall be deemed guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor. In any area in which there is located a court-approved detoxification center a law-enforcement officer may authorize the transportation, by police or otherwise, of public inebriates to such detoxification center in lieu of arrest; however, no person shall be involuntarily detained in such center.

(Code 1950, § 18.1-237; 1960, c. 358; 1964, c. 434; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1979, c. 654; 1982, c. 666; 1983, c. 187; 1990, c. 965.)
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Here's the link for your enjoyment: LIS > Code of Virginia


JasperL said:
There was no crime except the 'obstruction of justice without force' and swearing/drunkenness. What other crime would be on the tape?
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Possibly this one:
LIS > Code of Virginia > 18.2-415

JasperL said:
And if you're taken down for nothing (let's assume that for a moment), are you obligated to behave like a sheep, perhaps thank the cops for not tazing/shooting you?
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In todays world and given the lack of police training - yes he probably should thank those cops for not tazing or shooting him. If you don't wish to go along peacefully to work out the problems you are being accused of, you might well expect such resistance will be met with overwhelming force and possibly injury. You see, as Newton stated: Each action has a equal and opposite reaction.



JasperL said:
It's interesting. He's not charged with an actual crime except for protesting the cops when he was detained for doing nothing wrong.
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He was charges with two misdemeanors. Misdemeanors are a crime in every state in the land.

JasperL said:
This kind of thing is what was alleged in Ferguson. The cops make a BS 'arrest' then add a bunch of layers of charges when the person objects to the BS arrest. I'm really not clear how that kind of behavior flies with libertarianism, conservatism, or liberalism/progressives.
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Again, Brown attacked a cop got shot, ran away and then charged the cop and was killed. Browns dead, the cop is exonerated and the "hand up don't shoot" should have been named "Hands up this is all a lie". :lamo
 
tres borrachos said:
An exemplary record as a human being and student leader. And?
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As I said, and you quoted: "It's less likely that a person with his record randomly decided to start swearing at the cops for no reason at all other than he hates cops or chose that moment to be an asshole. His history is one of respecting authority, not acting like a juvenile delinquent."

I'm not sure why I respond to you sometimes - you quote me, ignore what I just said, then ask the same question, again....

And yes, any UVA Student can get expelled for lying according to the Honor Code. So in other words, him being on The Honor Committee isn't relevant (except to you). As a student of UVA, he would know that.
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Did I say that only members of the Honor Committee can be expelled for lying? No, I went to UVa and so understand very well that the Honor Code applies to everyone. And his being on the honor committee speaks to his character. That's relevant to me because it's a position that by definition indicates a respect for authority, and a history of doing so at UVa. Of course that doesn't mean he cannot behave badly, only that it's completely unexpected given his record.
 
Ockham said:
Based on the charges but it's not yet known if there was an actual BAL test - we shall wait and see. And yes, COPS normally don't lie, as when they do and they're caught, they lose credibility within their own department and the charges will be dismissed. Unless of course you're accusing the COPS of manufacturing evidence in this case - to whit I would request you to provide verifiable evidence of such.... which I already know you do not have. See how that works?
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And kids on the Honor Committee at UVa don't normally lie either. They get expelled.

You mean the one you left out on purpose or the one you mentioned... hmmm... both depending on the accused demeanor and attitude. Just to clarify let me read to you what those two charges actual entail according to the State of Virginia:
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So if your attitude is bad, you should expect to be taken to the ground, bloodied, and arrested? Interesting view of appropriate role of the police you have. I don't agree.

Here's the link for your enjoyment: LIS > Code of Virginia
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I've read them - and they pointed out his "obstruction" was without force.

Possibly this one:
LIS > Code of Virginia > 18.2-415
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Right, another crime he MIGHT be charged with, but wasn't. Any more - assault, rape, murder, drug dealing? Why not while we're speculating?

In todays world and given the lack of police training - yes he probably should thank those cops for not tazing or shooting him. If you don't wish to go along peacefully to work out the problems you are being accused of, you might well expect such resistance will be met with overwhelming force and possibly injury. You see, as Newton stated: Each action has a equal and opposite reaction.
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We can agree to disagree that the bar for police is now "don't kill or taze an unarmed man over a fake ID or being drunk and disorderly."

He was charges with two misdemeanors. Misdemeanors are a crime in every state in the land.
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Yeah, and you probably were guilty of a half dozen misdemeanors today - if not today, this week. I don't believe you would accept getting taken to the ground, bloodied and arrested for those violations.

Again, Brown attacked a cop got shot, ran away and then charged the cop and was killed. Browns dead, the cop is exonerated and the "hand up don't shoot" should have been named "Hands up this is all a lie". :lamo
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Not what I was talking about - I was referring to the DOJ report on the police practices in general in Ferguson. I guess you missed that thread.
 
JasperL said:
As I said, and you quoted: "It's less likely that a person with his record randomly decided to start swearing at the cops for no reason at all other than he hates cops or chose that moment to be an asshole. His history is one of respecting authority, not acting like a juvenile delinquent."

I'm not sure why I respond to you sometimes - you quote me, ignore what I just said, then ask the same question, again....


Did I say that only members of the Honor Committee can be expelled for lying? No, I went to UVa and so understand very well that the Honor Code applies to everyone. And his being on the honor committee speaks to his character. That's relevant to me because it's a position that by definition indicates a respect for authority, and a history of doing so at UVa. Of course that doesn't mean he cannot behave badly, only that it's completely unexpected given his record.
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So any wrongdoing from him is just completely unexpected given his "record" so that's why you have made up your mind about the cops. Okay. Makes sense coming from you.
 
JasperL said:
Why do you assume he has no idea? I'd think a VP at UVa could get something as simple as a breathalyzer test of a student without any trouble at all in a college town. What's 'hearsay' is assuming he was drunk. What is YOUR evidence of that unless you have the results of the breathalyzer?
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He wasn't there. breathalyzed wouldn't work hours later.

I've said "may have been drunk, may have been beligerent". I don't know./ ,




I'd guess if he became "pugilistic" they'd have charged him with that, but they didn't - they noted NO use of force in the arrest documents. So the evidence indicates he didn't use any violence at all. He might have been "belligerent" as I expect you'd be if the cops detained you on some BS charge.
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What evidence?
 
JasperL said:
Why do you assume he has no idea? I'd think a VP at UVa could get something as simple as a breathalyzer test of a student without any trouble at all in a college town. What's 'hearsay' is assuming he was drunk. What is YOUR evidence of that unless you have the results of the breathalyzer?
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He wasn't there. breathalyzed wouldn't work hours later.

I've said "may have been drunk, may have been beligerent". I don't know./ ,




I'd guess if he became "pugilistic" they'd have charged him with that, but they didn't - they noted NO use of force in the arrest documents. So the evidence indicates he didn't use any violence at all. He might have been "belligerent" as I expect you'd be if the cops detained you on some BS charge.
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What evidence?
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
He wasn't there. breathalyzed wouldn't work hours later.

I've said "may have been drunk, may have been beligerent". I don't know.
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This isn't a court of law. I'm assuming the VP is faithfully representing the results of the breathalyzer test, and there's no reason to believe he'd make that up. It's the simplest of things for the cops to correct that.

What evidence?
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The evidence he didn't use violence against the cops is he was not charged with using violence against the cops. He was specifically NOT charged with use of violence. That would seem to be controlling until we learn something to dispute what he was charged with......
 
tres borrachos said:
So any wrongdoing from him is just completely unexpected given his "record" so that's why you have made up your mind about the cops.
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It's that, and I can't imagine what would justify the use of force against the person. It's not impossible the cops acted entirely appropriately, but I doubt it. We're all speculating, of course, just giving our opinions. If you don't like how I've justified mine, fine.

Okay. Makes sense coming from you.
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?????
 
JasperL said:
And kids on the Honor Committee at UVa don't normally lie either. They get expelled.
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This incident didn't occur on U.Va property but off campus, so it's still irrelevant.

JasperL said:
So if your attitude is bad, you should expect to be taken to the ground, bloodied, and arrested? Interesting view of appropriate role of the police you have. I don't agree.
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It has nothing to do with attitude, it has to do with the penal code of Virginia.

JasperL said:
I've read them - and they pointed out his "obstruction" was without force.
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They didn't point anything out as it applies to Johnson. Both are misdemeanors and therefore if the accused is not cooperative, he should be restrained, which is what the video shows and the facts so far, support

JasperL said:
Right, another crime he MIGHT be charged with, but wasn't. Any more - assault, rape, murder, drug dealing? Why not while we're speculating?
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Because my example is at least reasonable, whereas your examples are extremist nonsense.

JasperL said:
Yeah, and you probably were guilty of a half dozen misdemeanors today - if not today, this week. I don't believe you would accept getting taken to the ground, bloodied and arrested for those violations.
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Perhaps that applies to you but not to me. I worked from home today, it snowed all day here. I have responsibilities and the last time I got drunk and did something this stupid I was in the Army. But even then the last thing I'd do is fight the police and scream "racist" at the top of my lungs even while drunk. I'm a quiet drunk you see.

JasperL said:
Not what I was talking about - I was referring to the DOJ report on the police practices in general in Ferguson. I guess you missed that thread.
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Yes there are police procedural issues and training problems in lots of places in the US which cause lots of problems. Rev tends to post some of those and the issues he shows on video and have in the past, I've been appalled seeing. One where a older gentleman with Dealer tags gets pulled over by a cop and gets tazed - however in that case, the cop was 100% in the wrong. The premise for pulling the guy over was for an outdated inspection sticker (a Non moving vehicle violation - not a misdemeanor) where the cop then pulls the attitude and illegally slams the guy on the hood and ground tazes him and then arrests him. The funny thing here is, the cop didn't know a car with dealer tags doesn't need a valid inspection sticker (this happened in TX).
The result of that incident (sorry for taking this off topic but I'll try to bring it back around) was the Cop was fired after an IA review and may face charges himself.

The purpose of me bring that up was I don't jump to conclusions often as I treat each and every incident separately. Not all cops are bad, not all cops are badly trained and we tend to hear about the bad one's. In the case of Johnson, I don't see bad cops. In the case of Vasquez, I saw a person who had no business being a cop and the public is safer with him seeking employment elsewhere.
 
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