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Thread: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    But not in this place. And they were still checking IDs, but the kid couldn't give his correct zip. This is an indication of a fake ID, hence why the owner was using it. That would also then give the officer a reasonable suspicion that the ID was fake.


    How would the kid know? how does that turn into reasonable suspicion? Do the ABC police say why they stopped him in the first place?
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Let me ask you honestly, do you think it possible the ABC cops in this case acted outside the law?
    Yes, if they tackled him without provocation or refusal to cooperate from him. But that doesn't mean I'm going to be like so many others and automatically assume that the ABC cops are wrong here and that this kid wasn't drinking or refusing to cooperate with the police. Regardless, they did have reasonable suspicion to at least stop the kid to verify his ID was not fake.
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    How would the kid know? how does that turn into reasonable suspicion? Do the ABC police say why they stopped him in the first place?
    It doesn't matter if the kid knew that they had reasonable suspicion, which is why you cooperate with the cops, any cops, to the highest extent reasonable because if they have a reasonable suspicion of something, it might be wrong, but they get the benefit of the doubt. Fight it in court, not with the cops on the street.
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It doesn't matter if the kid knew that they had reasonable suspicion, which is why you cooperate with the cops, any cops, to the highest extent reasonable because if they have a reasonable suspicion of something, it might be wrong, but they get the benefit of the doubt. Fight it in court, not with the cops on the street.
    We don't know he "fought" the throngs of witnesses seem to indicate that didn't happen./
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Yes, if they tackled him without provocation or refusal to cooperate from him. But that doesn't mean I'm going to be like so many others and automatically assume that the ABC cops are wrong here and that this kid wasn't drinking or refusing to cooperate with the police. Regardless, they did have reasonable suspicion to at least stop the kid to verify his ID was not fake.

    What was the reasonable suspicion? Overhearing part of a conversation that had a rational explaination is not reasonable suspicion.

    lets say the kid was drinking, what justice was served by the selective enforcement? Who was harmed? who was the victim?
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    We don't know he "fought" the throngs of witnesses seem to indicate that didn't happen./
    We know he resisted (it is actually obvious from the video that he put up some resistance in them cuffing him at the least once he was on the ground). The witnesses are mainly his friends and others students so far who generally are not always reliable in accurately determining "resistance". Refusing to cooperate with police in an investigation, which starts with that "reasonable suspicion", is "fighting". Resisting arrest is "fighting".
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    What was the reasonable suspicion? Overhearing part of a conversation that had a rational explaination is not reasonable suspicion.

    lets say the kid was drinking, what justice was served by the selective enforcement? Who was harmed? who was the victim?
    Overhearing a conversation that a bouncer/ID checker refused to accept a driver's license as evidence of age is reasonable suspicion that the ID might be fake. No judge would disagree with that. Asking to see that ID, verify it is in fact real, not fake, is a perfectly acceptable response to that legitimate reasonable suspicion.
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    We know he resisted (it is actually obvious from the video that he put up some resistance in them cuffing him at the least once he was on the ground).
    We don't know what happened before this, he was already bloody.

    The witnesses are mainly his friends and others students so far who generally are not always reliable in accurately determining "resistance". Refusing to cooperate with police in an investigation, which starts with that "reasonable suspicion", is "fighting". Resisting arrest is "fighting".

    so, the THRONGS of witnesses can't be trusted.
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Overhearing a conversation that a bouncer/ID checker refused to accept a driver's license as evidence of age is reasonable suspicion that the ID might be fake.
    Is this what happened? Did they overhear the conversation? If they were that close, why not ask them there?

    or were they not in ear shot and observe the refusal to entry?




    No judge would disagree with that. Asking to see that ID, verify it is in fact real, not fake, is a perfectly acceptable response to that legitimate reasonable suspicion.


    I think we will find out who's right on this.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Yes, if they tackled him without provocation or refusal to cooperate from him. But that doesn't mean I'm going to be like so many others and automatically assume that the ABC cops are wrong here and that this kid wasn't drinking or refusing to cooperate with the police. Regardless, they did have reasonable suspicion to at least stop the kid to verify his ID was not fake.
    It seems to me the big difference of opinion is what kind of "non-cooperation" justifies getting tackled, and bloodied, and arrested and carted to jail. Based on what we know, I can't see any way to conclude the ABC appropriately used force against a kid who was, moments earlier, rational, calm, polite, and showed no signs of being intoxicated.

    If they ask to see my ID, do I have an obligation to IMMEDIATELY submit to their authority? If I say, "Why the f'k are you hassling me?" is that enough to take me to the ground, and arrest me and cart me to jail for obstruction of justice? It appears that's the level of is "resistance" here - maybe he wrenched his elbow out of the agent's grasp. Worthy of take down and arrest? I just can't see it.

    The problem here and in all such encounters is the encounter itself, not dealing somehow appropriately with the cops, creates a "crime" even when the person wasn't otherwise doing anything wrong. It is IMO an invitation for abuse of authority. Those who do not submit meekly to authority become criminals by not submitting meekly to authority. We can all maybe agree that doing so is a good STRATEGY, but I can't accept that's our OBLIGATION as a free person to do so.
    Last edited by JasperL; 03-25-15 at 01:59 PM.

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