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Thread: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

  1. #281
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    You have multiple people including the bar owner say he didn't appear intoxicated.

    He's an honor student.

    He was CORDIAL to the bouncer.

    It is NOT illegal to try to enter a public establishment, their "policy" is not enforcable law.


    What was the officers REASONABLE suspicion to detain this gentleman.




    again, honor student, no record, "leader", "cordial", apparently not intoxicated, broke no laws. ends up bloody on the ground being arrested.
    He was turned away from the pub because the bouncer/owner refused his ID. This would easily be suspicious to any LEO nearby and lead them to suspect that the ID he had might be fake. They couldn't know the other facts, that the owner/bouncer didn't even look at the age on the ID telling him that the person was underage, nor that the kid simply forgot his zip code change. That gives them reasonable suspicion though of something illegal, fake ID, and potentially that the ID had been used to obtain alcohol illegally. This was reason to detain the student and gather more information.
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  2. #282
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    But we do have some ideas - we have the witnesses who say he wasn't being belligerent. We have the bar owner seconds before he was apprehended stating the kid was polite, courteous, and showed no signs of intoxication, and that he calmly walked away from being denied entry. We have NO witnesses saying he was belligerent. All the available evidence points in one direction - he wasn't drunk or raising hell.

    And we know that within minutes, perhaps 1 minute, he's tackled and bloodied. Is the assumption that this honor student, on the honor committee, student leader, a long history of respect for authority, transformed into stark raving thug in the few seconds between the Pub and being approached by ABC agents?
    According to the guy it was "moments" before, but that doesn't mean it actually was. There is absolutely no evidence that it was that immediate. Is "moments" seconds or a minute or more? How distracted was the guy? People don't necessarily always judge time correctly especially if they were distracted.
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  3. #283
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The ID was questioned by the owner of the pub, indicating to a law enforcement agent nearby that it was suspicious. This provides the LEO with a reasonable suspicion that it could be fake since he was refused entry into a bar because of his ID. (The LEO wouldn't know that the owner didn't even bother to first check the age/date on the ID and see that he wasn't of age according to that in the first place.) Second, not being drunk does not mean not drinking. The LEO claims he was drinking (hence why he was released upon being "sober" after he was arrested). Those underage cannot drink, not just can't drink til drunk.
    Wrong, two private citizens talking, and one walking away is not "REASONABLE SUSPICION"... again, the pubs policy is not state law, nor is it "Reasonable suspicion" a crime has taken place.

    What was his BAC.?

    Link to "released when he was sober" please.
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    According to the guy it was "moments" before, but that doesn't mean it actually was. There is absolutely no evidence that it was that immediate. Is "moments" seconds or a minute or more? How distracted was the guy? People don't necessarily always judge time correctly especially if they were distracted.

    30 feet. "did not appear intoxicated", coedial... why would the bar lie?

    Bar Co-owner Says Martese Johnson Was 'Cordial' the Night of His Arrest - ABC News

    In Virginia, there is no legal requirement that customers entering a restaurant where alcohol is served must be over the age of 21. So Johnson had every right to attempt to enter Trinity so long as he was using his lawful identification. Trinity’s decision to enact a 21 and over policy after 10 p.m., for busy evenings, does not make Johnson’s attempt to enter illegal.

    No crime, no reasonable suspicion.
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    He was turned away from the pub because the bouncer/owner refused his ID. This would easily be suspicious to any LEO nearby and lead them to suspect that the ID he had might be fake. They couldn't know the other facts, that the owner/bouncer didn't even look at the age on the ID telling him that the person was underage, nor that the kid simply forgot his zip code change. That gives them reasonable suspicion though of something illegal, fake ID, and potentially that the ID had been used to obtain alcohol illegally. This was reason to detain the student and gather more information.

    again, wrong.

    In Virginia, there is no legal requirement that customers entering a restaurant where alcohol is served must be over the age of 21. So Johnson had every right to attempt to enter Trinity so long as he was using his lawful identification. Trinity’s decision to enact a 21 and over policy after 10 p.m., for busy evenings, does not make Johnson’s attempt to enter illegal.
    or suspicious.
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  6. #286
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The only evidence you are using is "he hasn't been cited". That doesn't mean it works, only that they don't necessarily check inside the bar enough to ensure "it works".
    This is the oddest fixation on an irrelevant side issue I've ever seen on this board. Evidence he hasn't been cited is the ONLY evidence we can point to as to whether his method works. And, again, the bottom line is he's the owner, it's his liquor license and therefore livelihood on the line, so it's sort of bizarre you're so focused on this triviality. Even if you're right, why does anyone care as it relates to the topic? What is your point?

    If you want to call the owner a liar, just call him a liar. No need to make up childish justifications - just say you don't believe him, you suspect (based on nothing) Johnson acted like a thug at the door and deserved to get tackled and bloodied.

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    He got what he deserved and 100% of the protesting punks do not know the facts but it is hip to protest now if the arrestee is a minority. Ignorance is a curriculum in colleges.

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And when we ignore laws such as drinking age or having a fake ID (which the suspicion involved here was having a fake license, not college ID), we see that other crimes go up. However, when the lesser laws are enforced (not necessarily with harsh punishment, just enforced), larger crime rates drop as well. Generally, this is seen as happening because it locks up those who would work there way up or because it catches those who have already done something and are wanted or suspected for something else, or can be identified by information gathered/had.
    OK, you sound like a Police spokesman.

    This was a party night, in a college town, the pub was in the heart of campus, he's a college student. If they started vigorously enforcing drinking laws at UVa, half the school would graduate with a criminal record or on some kind of probation. So a little bit of time and place perspective is in order, even presuming the "broken window" school of policing is at all effective.

  9. #289
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Wrong, two private citizens talking, and one walking away is not "REASONABLE SUSPICION"... again, the pubs policy is not state law, nor is it "Reasonable suspicion" a crime has taken place.

    What was his BAC.?

    Link to "released when he was sober" please.
    Yes, a private conversation that is still within an officer's hearing is able to be used as "reasonable suspicion".

    And here is the bail statement.

    The Cavalier Daily :: Johnson's warrant of arrest shows two misdemeanor charges

    About the sixth or seventh document scanned. "Bail Set <can't determine the first few letters> $1500.00 when sober"

    And the third one down has this checked: Other: release on an unsecured bond when sober
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  10. #290
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    OK, you sound like a Police spokesman.

    This was a party night, in a college town, the pub was in the heart of campus, he's a college student. If they started vigorously enforcing drinking laws at UVa, half the school would graduate with a criminal record or on some kind of probation. So a little bit of time and place perspective is in order, even presuming the "broken window" school of policing is at all effective.
    They weren't enforcing the laws on campus or at private residences, but rather in public drinking establishments. And they should be enforcing fake ID laws everywhere they are suspected.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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