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Thread: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

  1. #271
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Having a fake ID is not "harmless". Now I personally feel the drinking age should be 18, however it currently is 21, so therefore should be enforced, particularly on public streets and in public establishments.

    It is wrong to ignore the "trivial" laws in favor of only going after the larger ones. That doesn't work. You have to enforce the smaller laws at a reasonable level.
    As I mentioned above there's a wide range of "fake IDs". A kid with a bogus college ID is certainly not nearly as big a deal as a guy with fake driver's license or someone with fake police ID.

    I agree with you on what the right drinking age should be. I still though think it's a waste of time and money to dedicate cops to enforcing it.

    It isn't wrong to ignore trivial laws. We do it all the time.
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  2. #272
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    A fake driver's license is a different issue from a fake ID. A fake driver's license can be used to illegally operate a motor vehicle. An 18 year old having a bogus ID for some college that says he's 21 for purpose of getting into a bar is a completely different matter.
    Still illegal.

    https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/leg...cod+18.2-204.2

    18.2-204.2. Manufacture, sale, etc., or possession of fictitious, facsimile or simulated official license or identification; penalty.

    A. Except as provided in subsection D of 18.2-204.1, it shall be unlawful for any person to manufacture, advertise for sale, sell or possess any fictitious, facsimile or simulated driver's license issued by any state, territory or possession of the United States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico or any foreign country or government; United States Armed Forces identification card; United States passport or foreign government visa; Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles special identification card; official identification issued by any other federal, state or foreign government agency; or official university or college student identification card, or in any way reproduce any identification card or facsimile thereof in such a manner that it could be mistaken for a valid license or identification of any type specified in this subsection.

    B. Any person manufacturing, advertising for sale, selling or reproducing such card or facsimile thereof shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

    C. Any person possessing any such card or facsimile thereof shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.

    D. The provisions of this section shall not preclude an election to prosecute under 18.2-172, except to prosecute for forgery or uttering of such license or identification card or facsimile thereof as proof of age.

    (1980, c. 281; 1989, c. 705; 1992, c. 531; 2006, cc. 445, 484; 2011, c. 401.)
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  3. #273
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    As I mentioned above there's a wide range of "fake IDs". A kid with a bogus college ID is certainly not nearly as big a deal as a guy with fake driver's license or someone with fake police ID.

    I agree with you on what the right drinking age should be. I still though think it's a waste of time and money to dedicate cops to enforcing it.

    It isn't wrong to ignore trivial laws. We do it all the time.
    And when we ignore laws such as drinking age or having a fake ID (which the suspicion involved here was having a fake license, not college ID), we see that other crimes go up. However, when the lesser laws are enforced (not necessarily with harsh punishment, just enforced), larger crime rates drop as well. Generally, this is seen as happening because it locks up those who would work there way up or because it catches those who have already done something and are wanted or suspected for something else, or can be identified by information gathered/had.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  4. #274
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    A fake driver's license is a different issue from a fake ID. A fake driver's license can be used to illegally operate a motor vehicle. An 18 year old having a bogus ID for some college that says he's 21 for purpose of getting into a bar is a completely different matter.
    He was using his Illinois driver's license, not his college ID. College ID's show your college, not the state you are from and the owner of the pub said he noticed that the kid had an ID from Illinois.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    We have no idea how he acted to the cops, and due to the poor policy of the owner of the pub in how he checks IDs, suspicion, even if the ID wasn't fake, caused the encounter. We don't actually know the kid wasn't drinking, which is illegal, only that his buddies and others claim he wasn't "intoxicated".

    You have multiple people including the bar owner say he didn't appear intoxicated.

    He's an honor student.

    He was CORDIAL to the bouncer.

    It is NOT illegal to try to enter a public establishment, their "policy" is not enforcable law.


    What was the officers REASONABLE suspicion to detain this gentleman.




    again, honor student, no record, "leader", "cordial", apparently not intoxicated, broke no laws. ends up bloody on the ground being arrested.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    A fake driver's license is a different issue from a fake ID. A fake driver's license can be used to illegally operate a motor vehicle. An 18 year old having a bogus ID for some college that says he's 21 for purpose of getting into a bar is a completely different matter.


    His ID was not fake.

    There is no evidence that he was drunk
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    He's an idiot for not looking at the actual person and their age on the ID first. Then doing his check if there is an issue. The ID wasn't fake, according to the story, so then what made him think the ID was fake? If you are getting a fake ID, you are likely going to memorize the info on there. That is the stupidest way to find an underage person trying to enter a bar/pub. It's an excuse.
    OK, your opinion is noted. This guy OWNS the Pub, it is HIS liquor license, and therefore his entire investment in the business is on the line every day based on how well they screen out underage patrons. And according to the accounts I've seen, he has had few to no citations for serving underage kids at a club in the heart of a college campus full of smart, tech-savvy people with access to color printers etc. so it's odd you're questioning the methods he's using to weed out fakes. It's his pub, his method WORKS, and that's ultimately the bottom line for a Pub owner.

    If you'd do it differently, great, but irrelevant.

    And what's it an "excuse" for? I have no idea why you're working so hard to dismiss the owner's statement about his interaction with Johnson.

  8. #278
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    OK, your opinion is noted. This guy OWNS the Pub, it is HIS liquor license, and therefore his entire investment in the business is on the line every day based on how well they screen out underage patrons. And according to the accounts I've seen, he has had few to no citations for serving underage kids at a club in the heart of a college campus full of smart, tech-savvy people with access to color printers etc. so it's odd you're questioning the methods he's using to weed out fakes. It's his pub, his method WORKS, and that's ultimately the bottom line for a Pub owner.

    If you'd do it differently, great, but irrelevant.

    And what's it an "excuse" for? I have no idea why you're working so hard to dismiss the owner's statement about his interaction with Johnson.
    The only evidence you are using is "he hasn't been cited". That doesn't mean it works, only that they don't necessarily check inside the bar enough to ensure "it works".
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  9. #279
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    His ID was not fake.

    There is no evidence that he was drunk
    The ID was questioned by the owner of the pub, indicating to a law enforcement agent nearby that it was suspicious. This provides the LEO with a reasonable suspicion that it could be fake since he was refused entry into a bar because of his ID. (The LEO wouldn't know that the owner didn't even bother to first check the age/date on the ID and see that he wasn't of age according to that in the first place.) Second, not being drunk does not mean not drinking. The LEO claims he was drinking (hence why he was released upon being "sober" after he was arrested). Those underage cannot drink, not just can't drink til drunk.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Exactly, rogue. The bottom line is, we have no idea, and we don't know anything, really. And his discussion with the bar bouncer and his status as an honor student have exactly zero to do with this.
    But we do have some ideas - we have the witnesses who say he wasn't being belligerent. We have the bar owner seconds before he was apprehended stating the kid was polite, courteous, and showed no signs of intoxication, and that he calmly walked away from being denied entry. We have NO witnesses saying he was belligerent. All the available evidence points in one direction - he wasn't drunk or raising hell.

    And we know that within minutes, perhaps 1 minute, he's tackled and bloodied. Is the assumption that this honor student, on the honor committee, student leader, a long history of respect for authority, transformed into stark raving thug in the few seconds between the Pub and being approached by ABC agents?

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