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Thread: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

  1. #261
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Seems like you're looking really hard for excuses to blame the kid.

    If the bar owner suspects a fake ID, he's an idiot if he cares what age that ID states. What's the point of checking the age of a suspected fake ID?

    And you're right, he doesn't have to be drunk to violate underage drinking laws. But I assume you've been to college or have been out in a college town on a party night. Half the people walking the streets is publicly intoxicated, and/or guilty of underage drinking. Why target a guy who's been polite, courteous as he's turned away from a bar?

    Finally, right, pub owners don't like ABC agents. So the strategy is to make them look bad by FALSELY claiming the kid they took down and bloodied was an angel at his place? Seems like a good way to get them citing you for every violation possible.
    He's an idiot for not looking at the actual person and their age on the ID first. Then doing his check if there is an issue. The ID wasn't fake, according to the story, so then what made him think the ID was fake? If you are getting a fake ID, you are likely going to memorize the info on there. That is the stupidest way to find an underage person trying to enter a bar/pub. It's an excuse.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Which still doesn't mean he shouldn't get stopped if he was breaking the law. Most of these such cases involve something more than "he was just breaking this trivial offense". It almost always involves the person refusing to cooperate with the police when they are gathering information about the offense, then resisting arrest somehow, generally after a more than reasonable amount of time has passed. In this case, we don't really know a lot about what happened in between the kid leaving the pub and the video started. Hell, we don't really even know what happened at the club entrance. We only have the owner's statement, not much else.
    This should not be a crime. It should not be a police matter. That is the point. Unless the kid becomes violent with the bar staff, which may or may not have happened here, there is no reason for the police to deal with what is essentially a kindergarten issue.
    The extent of police involvement should be insuring that bars do not knowingly serve underage people - assuming that's a criminal and not an administrative violation in that location.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

  3. #263
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    This should not be a crime. It should not be a police matter. That is the point. Unless the kid becomes violent with the bar staff, which may or may not have happened here, there is no reason for the police to deal with what is essentially a kindergarten issue.
    The extent of police involvement should be insuring that bars do not knowingly serve underage people - assuming that's a criminal and not an administrative violation in that location.
    So youre saying having a fake ID shouldn't be a crime? That doesn't make any sense. That is almost certainly one of the crimes he was suspected of. And whether we agree or not that underage drinking should be a crime, it currently is. That means that if they did find evidence of him drinking, they had every right to address it, giving him a citation or actually arresting him. And we have no real idea what his attitude towards the officers was. So far, we have a very one sided version from him and his friends.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  4. #264
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    So youre saying having a fake ID shouldn't be a crime? That doesn't make any sense. That is almost certainly one of the crimes he was suspected of. And whether we agree or not that underage drinking should be a crime, it currently is. That means that if they did find evidence of him drinking, they had every right to address it, giving him a citation or actually arresting him. And we have no real idea what his attitude towards the officers was. So far, we have a very one sided version from him and his friends.
    When I was growing every kid had a fake ID, most pathetically bad, and tried to get into bars. It was - and still is it seems - normal behavior for young people. I agree both are crimes but criminalizing normal, largely harmless, kid behavior is stupid. It's also a symptom of the larger problem of criminalizing lots of harmless or trivially bad behavior in this society.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

  5. #265
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    What's embarrassing is that a mouthy kid trying to get access to alcohol bumps his head (head wounds bleed profusely) and it's a national story. Really should have only made it as far as the local Pennysaver.


    Wow.... unapologetic never the cops fault....


    Kid was an honor student, had a CORDIAL conversation with the bouncer at the bar...broke NO laws, yet we are supposed to believe he suddenly became "mouthy" enough to deserve to be assaulted by police?


    wow. Your America is not my America.
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  6. #266
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    This should not be a crime. It should not be a police matter. That is the point. Unless the kid becomes violent with the bar staff, which may or may not have happened here, there is no reason for the police to deal with what is essentially a kindergarten issue.
    The extent of police involvement should be insuring that bars do not knowingly serve underage people - assuming that's a criminal and not an administrative violation in that location.
    Having a fake ID is a crime in Virginia:

    https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/leg...0+cod+46.2-346

    Snipped below:

    46.2-346. Unlawful acts enumerated.

    A. No person shall:

    1. Display, cause or permit to be displayed, or have in his possession any driver's license which he knows to be fictitious or to have been cancelled, revoked, suspended, or altered, or photographed for the purpose of evading the intent of this chapter;

    2. Lend to, or knowingly permit the use of by one not entitled thereto, any driver's license issued to the person so lending or permitting the use thereof;

    3. Display or represent as his own any driver's license not issued to him;

    4. Reproduce by photograph or otherwise, any driver's license, temporary driver's permit, learner's permit, or special identification card issued by the Department with the intent to commit an illegal act;


    Underage drinking is a crime in Virginia:

    https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/leg...cod+18.2-266.1

    18.2-266.1. Persons under age 21 driving after illegally consuming alcohol; penalty.

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person under the age of 21 to operate any motor vehicle after illegally consuming alcohol. Any such person with a blood alcohol concentration of 0.02 percent or more by weight by volume or 0.02 grams or more per 210 liters of breath but less than 0.08 by weight by volume or less than 0.08 grams per 210 liters of breath as indicated by a chemical test administered as provided in this article shall be in violation of this section.

    B. A violation of this section is a Class 1 misdemeanor. Punishment shall include (i) forfeiture of such person's license to operate a motor vehicle for a period of one year from the date of conviction and (ii) a mandatory minimum fine of $500 or performance of a mandatory minimum of 50 hours of community service. This suspension period shall be in addition to the suspension period provided under 46.2-391.2. The penalties and license forfeiture provisions set forth in 16.1-278.9, 18.2-270 and 18.2-271 shall not apply to a violation of this section. Any person convicted of a violation of this section shall be eligible to attend an Alcohol Safety Action Program under the provisions of 18.2-271.1 and may, in the discretion of the court, be issued a restricted license during the term of license suspension.

    C. Notwithstanding 16.1-278.8 and 16.1-278.9, upon adjudicating a juvenile delinquent based upon a violation of this section, the juvenile and domestic relations district court shall order disposition as provided in subsection B.


    Suspicion of the violation of either of those laws most certainly is a police matter.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

  7. #267
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    When I was growing every kid had a fake ID, most pathetically bad, and tried to get into bars. It was - and still is it seems - normal behavior for young people. I agree both are crimes but criminalizing normal, largely harmless, kid behavior is stupid. It's also a symptom of the larger problem of criminalizing lots of harmless or trivially bad behavior in this society.
    Having a fake ID is not "harmless". Now I personally feel the drinking age should be 18, however it currently is 21, so therefore should be enforced, particularly on public streets and in public establishments.

    It is wrong to ignore the "trivial" laws in favor of only going after the larger ones. That doesn't work. You have to enforce the smaller laws at a reasonable level.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  8. #268
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Wow.... unapologetic never the cops fault....


    Kid was an honor student, had a CORDIAL conversation with the bouncer at the bar...broke NO laws, yet we are supposed to believe he suddenly became "mouthy" enough to deserve to be assaulted by police?


    wow. Your America is not my America.
    We have no idea how he acted to the cops, and due to the poor policy of the owner of the pub in how he checks IDs, suspicion, even if the ID wasn't fake, caused the encounter. We don't actually know the kid wasn't drinking, which is illegal, only that his buddies and others claim he wasn't "intoxicated".
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  9. #269
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    We have no idea how he acted to the cops, and due to the poor policy of the owner of the pub in how he checks IDs, suspicion, even if the ID wasn't fake, caused the encounter. We don't actually know the kid wasn't drinking, which is illegal, only that his buddies and others claim he wasn't "intoxicated".
    Exactly, rogue. The bottom line is, we have no idea, and we don't know anything, really. And his discussion with the bar bouncer and his status as an honor student have exactly zero to do with this.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

  10. #270
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Having a fake ID is a crime in Virginia:

    https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/leg...0+cod+46.2-346

    Snipped below:

    46.2-346. Unlawful acts enumerated.

    A. No person shall:

    1. Display, cause or permit to be displayed, or have in his possession any driver's license which he knows to be fictitious or to have been cancelled, revoked, suspended, or altered, or photographed for the purpose of evading the intent of this chapter;

    2. Lend to, or knowingly permit the use of by one not entitled thereto, any driver's license issued to the person so lending or permitting the use thereof;

    3. Display or represent as his own any driver's license not issued to him;

    4. Reproduce by photograph or otherwise, any driver's license, temporary driver's permit, learner's permit, or special identification card issued by the Department with the intent to commit an illegal act;


    Underage drinking is a crime in Virginia:

    https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/leg...cod+18.2-266.1

    18.2-266.1. Persons under age 21 driving after illegally consuming alcohol; penalty.

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person under the age of 21 to operate any motor vehicle after illegally consuming alcohol. Any such person with a blood alcohol concentration of 0.02 percent or more by weight by volume or 0.02 grams or more per 210 liters of breath but less than 0.08 by weight by volume or less than 0.08 grams per 210 liters of breath as indicated by a chemical test administered as provided in this article shall be in violation of this section.

    B. A violation of this section is a Class 1 misdemeanor. Punishment shall include (i) forfeiture of such person's license to operate a motor vehicle for a period of one year from the date of conviction and (ii) a mandatory minimum fine of $500 or performance of a mandatory minimum of 50 hours of community service. This suspension period shall be in addition to the suspension period provided under 46.2-391.2. The penalties and license forfeiture provisions set forth in 16.1-278.9, 18.2-270 and 18.2-271 shall not apply to a violation of this section. Any person convicted of a violation of this section shall be eligible to attend an Alcohol Safety Action Program under the provisions of 18.2-271.1 and may, in the discretion of the court, be issued a restricted license during the term of license suspension.

    C. Notwithstanding 16.1-278.8 and 16.1-278.9, upon adjudicating a juvenile delinquent based upon a violation of this section, the juvenile and domestic relations district court shall order disposition as provided in subsection B.


    Suspicion of the violation of either of those laws most certainly is a police matter.

    A fake driver's license is a different issue from a fake ID. A fake driver's license can be used to illegally operate a motor vehicle. An 18 year old having a bogus ID for some college that says he's 21 for purpose of getting into a bar is a completely different matter.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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