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Thread: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    Even so it's not like the kid's Al Capone. It's a trivial offense.
    Which still doesn't mean he shouldn't get stopped if he was breaking the law. Most of these such cases involve something more than "he was just breaking this trivial offense". It almost always involves the person refusing to cooperate with the police when they are gathering information about the offense, then resisting arrest somehow, generally after a more than reasonable amount of time has passed. In this case, we don't really know a lot about what happened in between the kid leaving the pub and the video started. Hell, we don't really even know what happened at the club entrance. We only have the owner's statement, not much else.
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Which still doesn't mean he shouldn't get stopped if he was breaking the law. Most of these such cases involve something more than "he was just breaking this trivial offense". It almost always involves the person refusing to cooperate with the police when they are gathering information about the offense, then resisting arrest somehow, generally after a more than reasonable amount of time has passed. In this case, we don't really know a lot about what happened in between the kid leaving the pub and the video started. Hell, we don't really even know what happened at the club entrance. We only have the owner's statement, not much else.
    Who gives a ****? I don't care about any of that ****. I don't care about people enjoying one thing or another. Oh this minor is drinking lets bring in cops and arrest him. **** that. Any cop that enforces that **** deserves nothing.

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    This is kind of off topic, but if you read the law (I've had to at various times), the bar owner is liable if he accepts a fake ID. So once he's determined that the ID might be fake, there is no legal or operating reason for him to take any risk and accept that ID, especially in a college town, especially when the person is clearly close at best to the legal age limit. Every training manual would DIRECT the bouncer (owner in this case) to reject the ID and refuse admission. There is simply no payoff in accepting it - he can lose his license if it's proved fake, and the downside is one kid doesn't get in the bar. Easy decision for a bar owner in a college town.

    And I guess I disagree that there is zero evidence this is about race because it was such a quick turnaround from polite and cordial kid at the pub to forcible tackle and bloodied face, when no one has alleged he swore at them, resisted arrest, etc. I've heard too many black men who I respect and who are professionals talk about Driving While Black or Shopping While Black, and the point is they do not get any benefit of the doubt, but white guys in a college town full of rich kids of important people often DO.

    I haven't alleged racism, but I can't at all conclude there's no evidence race played a role. I've lived in Charlottesville and race relations when I was there were poor.
    Show evidence that there was a "quick turnaround" and that this "quick turnaround" automatically means race was the reason for the "quick turnaround". I work in retail. There is nothing about being black that gets people targeted by our mainly black loss prevention people. What gets anyone targeted is when they saunter in and look around for cameras, start doing stuff that is suspicious.

    The main issue is that people believe that they are being targeted because they are black, instead of actually admitting that perhaps their actions are suspicious.

    I have been denied alcohol after turning 21, as well as having to completely change plans because of a bar's stupid policy concerning out of state ID cards. There have been places that refused to accept my military ID as identifying my age. There have been places that refused to accept an out of state ID because it wasn't a license (despite the fact that they look exactly the same with the exception being one says "driver's license" and the other says "identification card" at the top. It sucks a lot to be discriminated against because you happen to have an ID that people are too lazy to actually take the time to look at rather than assuming something obscure will catch those doing the fake ID thing.
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    But what you fail to acknowledge is there was basis for any ticket until he wasn't sufficiently subservient to the ABC agents. He did nothing wrong except for failing to show the proper respect to authority.
    They had to determine if there was a basis for the "ticket" first, meaning looking at his ID card to determine if it was fake. They had absolutely a reasonable suspicion that he might have a fake ID card and/or that he might have been drinking already that night. The reasonable suspicion comes from his getting turned away by the pub owner, especially if they had overheard the conversation and the only thing they knew was that the pub owner didn't accept his ID card as valid. This then gave them authority to stop to investigate the potential crime, drinking underage and/or possessing a fake ID. They could have seen evidence he had been drinking or they could have simply asked him to see his ID and he refused for whatever reason. It is also possible that they wrongly jumped the gun and simply assumed he either had the fake ID and/or had been drinking and attacked him without him getting a chance to cooperate. We simply don't know what happened. But there isn't information that they attacked him preemptively, before he refused to cooperate.
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Show evidence that there was a "quick turnaround" and that this "quick turnaround" automatically means race was the reason for the "quick turnaround". I work in retail. There is nothing about being black that gets people targeted by our mainly black loss prevention people. What gets anyone targeted is when they saunter in and look around for cameras, start doing stuff that is suspicious.
    That's what the accounts say - he's stopped, and before anyone knows there's a problem, he's on the ground. That's what the witnesses said. Obviously that might be incorrect, but there is no evidence the encounter took more than a few seconds before he was taken down.

    And I didn't say it automatically meant anything. I said I haven't alleged racism. What I cannot do is rule race out of the equation. Racism exists, and when cops overreact to someone who has a long history of being a stand up guy, and respectful of authority, the question is what caused this encounter to go so wrong so quickly. Race is one possibility...

    The main issue is that people believe that they are being targeted because they are black, instead of actually admitting that perhaps their actions are suspicious.
    Or, maybe in some cases they are targeted because they are black. Goodness, when these things arise, the first defense is there is no racial profiling, and the second is always, of course there is because blacks commit all the crimes. It can't be both. When NYC stopped and frisked people, for example, they targeted young men of color - not white guys in Manhattan. So you have to admit in some cases blacks are targeted because they're young and black. I don't know if that happened here or not - it is possible.

    I have been denied alcohol after turning 21, as well as having to completely change plans because of a bar's stupid policy concerning out of state ID cards. There have been places that refused to accept my military ID as identifying my age. There have been places that refused to accept an out of state ID because it wasn't a license (despite the fact that they look exactly the same with the exception being one says "driver's license" and the other says "identification card" at the top. It sucks a lot to be discriminated against because you happen to have an ID that people are too lazy to actually take the time to look at rather than assuming something obscure will catch those doing the fake ID thing.
    Those are interesting stories, but the bar owner said his interaction with Johnson was perfectly cordial, he was polite, there was no evidence Johnson was drunk and no evidence he stormed out and started raising hell after being denied entry, properly. The evidence is Johnson was disappointed, and then calmly walked away - that's it. And maybe a minute later he's on the ground, his face bloodied.

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    They had to determine if there was a basis for the "ticket" first, meaning looking at his ID card to determine if it was fake. They had absolutely a reasonable suspicion that he might have a fake ID card and/or that he might have been drinking already that night. The reasonable suspicion comes from his getting turned away by the pub owner, especially if they had overheard the conversation and the only thing they knew was that the pub owner didn't accept his ID card as valid. This then gave them authority to stop to investigate the potential crime, drinking underage and/or possessing a fake ID. They could have seen evidence he had been drinking or they could have simply asked him to see his ID and he refused for whatever reason. It is also possible that they wrongly jumped the gun and simply assumed he either had the fake ID and/or had been drinking and attacked him without him getting a chance to cooperate. We simply don't know what happened. But there isn't information that they attacked him preemptively, before he refused to cooperate.
    Except for the witnesses....

    What we can pretty much know is his 'non cooperation' was mild - he was explicitly charged with obstruction without force, and that got him a take down and a bloodied face. If you think that's good police work, and appropriate, and should be acceptable to the local community, we simply disagree.

    The bottom line is I can easily imagine myself, my brother, many friends, in that situation, and I'm positive if they were innocent of any actual crime, I do not believe I'd accept that as good/appropriate/acceptable police work. If you can imagine yourself or your family getting thrown to the ground because you objected that they had you by the arm, and pulled their arm away, great, we have different opinions. Their job is protecting the public, and enforcing the law, not demanding instant obedience from the people they serve and who have given NO indication they're a threat to anyone.

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Which still doesn't mean he shouldn't get stopped if he was breaking the law. Most of these such cases involve something more than "he was just breaking this trivial offense". It almost always involves the person refusing to cooperate with the police when they are gathering information about the offense, then resisting arrest somehow, generally after a more than reasonable amount of time has passed. In this case, we don't really know a lot about what happened in between the kid leaving the pub and the video started. Hell, we don't really even know what happened at the club entrance. We only have the owner's statement, not much else.
    It's funny - the owner is the person who carded Johnson and interacted with him. That should carry some weight. And his statement is perfectly consistent with all the other witnesses we've heard from, who all indicated there was no problem at the pub, and no problem as he left the pub. What do you need?

    This owner has to deal with ABC agents nearly daily. What does it help him to undermine the agents if Johnson was drunk, acting like a thug, disorderly? He's causing problems he doesn't need by lying. So the simple assumption is he's recounting what he saw, accurately. Makes no sense for him to do anything else.
    Last edited by JasperL; 03-24-15 at 07:56 PM.

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    I'm not a big fan of underaged drinking. I don't mind a kid having a beer with his parents or for that matter with his family at a park. It's trivial and doesn't harm anyone. However, I think it speaks volumes that trivial situations such as these spin out of control so fast. This kid wasn't driving drunk. He wasn't beating up on other patrons. He wasn't selling drugs. He was a college kid out doing what college kids do. They drink, they party, they waste money and at the end of the night, they go home and post about it on instagram. That the situation go to the point where a minor was bleeding on the floor and adults all over the country began arguing about statutes and laws says far more about just how little sense we have as a country anymore. It's absolutely embarrassing.

    This situation could have easily been diffused by talking and simply telling the minor the consequences of his actions if he continued. However, they didn't. Somebody got their feelings hurt and an altercation proceeded. Who? I don't know. I don't know enough about the case, but I know for sure that there is no way this would be the first time these guys dealt with a supposedly drunk minor and handled it without it resulting in violence.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 03-24-15 at 07:58 PM.
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    What's embarrassing is that a mouthy kid trying to get access to alcohol bumps his head (head wounds bleed profusely) and it's a national story. Really should have only made it as far as the local Pennysaver.

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by Declan View Post
    The police and ABC are known to be abusive does not excuse their abuse. I saw one article that indicates the sidewalk was spattered with his blood. I saw cellphone video taken after they had him down on the concrete while still in the process of cuffing him in which others were already yelling about his head bleeding. It is not clear to me if his charges is related to being drunk or because he told the officers what they were doing is f-ing racist. Seems a pretty unnecessary use of force to me either way.
    A couple of years ago the Va ABC surrounded some college girls in plain clothes and drew guns on them after carrying "what appeared to be a case of beer" whole looking under age, except it was bottled water
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