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Thread: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Could be for the correct stamp or wristband. Especially on celebration days pubs that allow underage folks in have different stamps or wristbands for those who can legally drink and those who cannot. The fake ID would take the presenter into illegal territory. It's not legal to have a fake ID no matter how you slice it.


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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Because once they establish that they have "reasonable suspicion", as could easily be gained from overhearing a conversation questioning the validity of the presented ID to a bouncer at a pub, then they have the absolute right and should stop the person to question them and determine the validity of the ID card. They had obvious reasonable suspicion to believe a crime, possession/use of a fake ID card, was happening. They might have been wrong, but can't know that without first finding out. That is not an unreasonable request at all. It is not in any way wrong for the police to question him about his ID and whether he had been drinking or trying to obtain alcohol underage or determine if he had a fake ID. Cooperation is not unreasonable nor is it asking for "subservience". It is doing their job, upholding the laws.
    But no one has even said Johnson resisted interrogation. The worst I've read is an agent had him by the elbow and he wrenched his elbow out of his grasp - that's what earned the take down and bloodied face. It's my view that is a overreach and a failure on their part - they turned what should have been a routine encounter into an arrest, of a person whose only crime was dealing somehow inappropriately, but without any force, with ABC agents. I can't believe they've been trained to take down individuals in those circumstances, and I can't believe anyone would think they did their job well in that circumstance.

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    All that is predicated on the assumption that his ID was valid, and that's contraindicated by your statements that he was "at the bar", suggesting he was trying to get alcohol.


    The bar/restauraunt has a policy of all ages until 10pm, you can't make the assumption he was trying to buy alchohol illegally. Nor is his being turned away after a cordial conversation "reasonable suspicion" to detain.
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Yeah you have to click to find the information there. You should try that.
    I've done it, it's not there, as you know. If you think it's there, take 10 seconds and quote the relevant section or cite the appropriate section of the VA Code.

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    His ID wasn't illegal because it wasn't fake.
    Just as a side note: What underage college kid doesn't have a fake ID? Especially on St. Patty's day when everyone knows they're going to be carded. Maybe that's now considered "old school".
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Just a comment to support that; Reasonable Suspicion is the lowest requirement needed, as opposed to Probable Cause.
    Oh, I am well aware. I have taken a few semesters of criminal justice courses and reasonable suspicion is well established as the first/lowest level required for official police interaction, how it can be used to reasonably detain a suspect. If he had just cooperated and calmly and respectfully explained the issue, they would have had no reason to detain him further. So what happened after the initial contact with the officers? Why did they arrest him if his ID was valid? And the fact that he didn't have his ID out then (someone was saying he was getting it out) suggests that he was refusing to show the officers his ID card. That is where the issue is if he actually refused to show ID/cooperate with the police while they were investigating him.

    As I've consistently said, it is much better and less likely to cause injuries or death to simply cooperate with the police rather than being rude or uncooperative, as many we've seen have been. Fight it in court, where you have a much better chance of winning.
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Just as a side note: What underage college kid doesn't have a fake ID? Especially on St. Patty's day when everyone knows they're going to be carded. Maybe that's now considered "old school".


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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I've done it, it's not there, as you know. If you think it's there, take 10 seconds and quote the relevant section or cite the appropriate section of the VA Code.
    It's in this section:
    APIS - Underage Drinking: Possession/Consumption/Internal Possession of Alcohol


    You have failed yet again to provide where in the Virginia statue minors without a parent or guardian are allowed into Pubs to consume alcohol. Which is why Johnson was attempting to get into the Irish Pub on St. Patricks Day and why he was prevented from enterying by the bouncer who's upholding the Virginia State law which states entrants must be 21 to enter and drink.

    The other thing is you keep stressing prior to 10 pm. Well... your own link (remember this link you provided?)
    The Cavalier Daily :: Johnson's warrant of arrest shows two misdemeanor charges

    States this occurred at 04:14 am. Oopsie!


    Johnson.jpg
    Last edited by Ockham; 03-24-15 at 04:07 PM. Reason: added picture
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    The bar/restauraunt has a policy of all ages until 10pm, you can't make the assumption he was trying to buy alchohol illegally. Nor is his being turned away after a cordial conversation "reasonable suspicion" to detain.
    It was after 12:15 though when he tried to get in. If this was the established policy, then why didn't they know it? Heck, what college kid thinks a pub will let those underage in past a certain time at night?

    Of course, if the owner is claiming he didn't look at either the photo or age, then he should probably get in trouble for not actually doing his job either. It indicates that if the kid had told him the correct zip code on the ID, then he would have let him in despite the policy itself. I don't completely believe the press release from the business either though because it sounds funny that he wouldn't check the age but question the zip. That just doesn't seem right.
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Oh, I am well aware. I have taken a few semesters of criminal justice courses and reasonable suspicion is well established as the first/lowest level required for official police interaction, how it can be used to reasonably detain a suspect. If he had just cooperated and calmly and respectfully explained the issue, they would have had no reason to detain him further. So what happened after the initial contact with the officers? Why did they arrest him if his ID was valid? And the fact that he didn't have his ID out then (someone was saying he was getting it out) suggests that he was refusing to show the officers his ID card. That is where the issue is if he actually refused to show ID/cooperate with the police while they were investigating him.
    You've assumed, contrary to reports of bystanders, that we was NOT cooperating with the ABC agents. He was cordial with the bar owner, didn't appear drunk, is a student leader, member of the honor committee, clearly has a history of respecting authority, and somehow a kid who had NO history of bad interactions with policy suddenly finds himself on the ground with a bloodied face. It's at least very possible (very LIKELY in my view) the failure here was by ABC agents with a fairly recent history of being heavy handed in entirely inappropriate circumstances....

    BTW, if his ID was invalid, why didn't they charge him with that obvious crime? No one has alleged he presented one or possessed one.

    As I've consistently said, it is much better and less likely to cause injuries or death to simply cooperate with the police rather than being rude or uncooperative, as many we've seen have been. Fight it in court, where you have a much better chance of winning.
    That's fine, and that's how I try to interact with police, but as a free person, you're not actually obligated to be courteous or even cooperative to police interrogating you for BS reasons. Failure to show proper subservience is simply NOT a license to take you down, put you in handcuffs, arrest you and bloody your face, and I don't see why any community should treat that as acceptable.

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