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Thread: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

  1. #201
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    It was in fact a restaurant. You can view the menu here: Trinity Irish Pub | Charlottesville, VaTrinity Irish Pub | Charlottesville, Va There is no law or state rule that prohibits underage patrons from entering, before, or after 10pm. That's only bar policy.

    And I've already speculated the ABC agents might have suspected he used fake ID. But the accounts are he was polite and cordial at the bar, was peacefully walking away, and still detained. And because he was insufficiently subservient to police questioning him about his VALID ID, he was arrested. How he reacted to the detention/questioning was the 'crime.' My discussion with Ockham began when he asserted the original crime was trying to enter a bar - that's false. He committed no crime at all except he didn't behave properly for the ABC agents, without force....
    All that is predicated on the assumption that his ID was valid, and that's contraindicated by your statements that he was "at the bar", suggesting he was trying to get alcohol.

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The thing is though, why would the bouncer/owner have to ask the kid about his zip code if he had a license/ID card that showed his real age in the first place? They already reported he was under 21. The owner of the pub could have simply said "you're under 21, we can't let you in here right now, since our policy is no one under 21 after this time at night". It doesn't make any sense that it was his ID if the bouncer/owner of the pub asked such a question. Unless he simply looked at the ID wrong.
    The owner/bouncer has been interviewed and said he didn't bother to check the birth date once Johnson cited the wrong zip code. It's also been reported the zip code he cited was the correct one (for his current address) but that his DL had an older address on it with a different zip code. Further, no one has alleged that he had a fake ID on him or that he tried to present one. It was a mixup, it probably didn't matter because he was underage, but it was fine for him to TRY to get in - no crime.

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Could be for the correct stamp or wristband. Especially on celebration days pubs that allow underage folks in have different stamps or wristbands for those who can legally drink and those who cannot. The fake ID would take the presenter into illegal territory. It's not legal to have a fake ID no matter how you slice it.
    But then he wouldn't have simply turned him away. He wouldn't have questioned the zip code if he didn't suspect the ID might be fake. And there is no reason to fake an ID that has an age under 21 on it (unless you are trying that stupid idea from the movie where the guys wanted to blackmail teachers for sleeping with underage students by getting the students fake IDs saying they were under age of consent).

    And yes, that is pretty much what I was getting at and a very valid reason for either ABC cops or regular officers to stop the kid if they heard the interaction between the owner of the pub and the kid concerning his ID and questioning the zip code on it. That would have been at the very least suspicious and easily considered reasonable suspicion to stop and ask to see his ID and/or question him.
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    The owner/bouncer has been interviewed and said he didn't bother to check the birth date once Johnson cited the wrong zip code. It's also been reported the zip code he cited was the correct one (for his current address) but that his DL had an older address on it with a different zip code. Further, no one has alleged that he had a fake ID on him or that he tried to present one. It was a mixup, it probably didn't matter because he was underage, but it was fine for him to TRY to get in - no crime.
    Don't know about VA but in OK the attempt is indeed illegal.

    A minor younger than 21 in Oklahoma may not purchase, possess or consume alcohol—including “low-point beer,” containing more than one half of one percent of alcohol by volume--in any public place or building. It is also illegal for a minor to enter an establishment that sells alcohol as its main purpose. (Oklahoma Stat. Ann. Section 1215, 163.2(1), 246(A)&(B).) Minors younger than 18 to may not work in any establishment that sells or serves alcohol; nor may minors between 19 and 20 work in a separate or enclosed bar area of such establishments. (Oklahoma Stat. Ann. Section 243(A)&(B).) There are few exceptions to these rules (see below).

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    All that is predicated on the assumption that his ID was valid, and that's contraindicated by your statements that he was "at the bar", suggesting he was trying to get alcohol.
    We have to assume his ID was valid, because the police didn't charge him with the crime of possessing a fake ID, and no one anywhere has alleged he had a fake ID, charged or not. And it's just obviously LEGAL for him to be at or in the "bar." It would be ILLEGAL for him to try to purchase alcohol or to consume alcohol at that bar, but he didn't do either of those. He was requesting admittance - that's it - totally legal act.

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    The owner/bouncer has been interviewed and said he didn't bother to check the birth date once Johnson cited the wrong zip code. It's also been reported the zip code he cited was the correct one (for his current address) but that his DL had an older address on it with a different zip code. Further, no one has alleged that he had a fake ID on him or that he tried to present one. It was a mixup, it probably didn't matter because he was underage, but it was fine for him to TRY to get in - no crime.
    But any police officers (of any kind) wouldn't necessarily know that, and the conversation itself would give them reasonable cause to stop and question him. They also could have seen something that made him appear intoxicated or as if he'd been drinking (which we still have no evidence that he wasn't). There is evidence that he might have been trying to drink by trying to get into the pub. How did the officers know without stopping him that he didn't have a fake ID? How would they know he hadn't used the ID he had (fake or not) to get into bars and drink? It is their job to enforce liquor laws, including those that prevent underage drinking. (even if people don't agree with those laws)
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Don't know about VA but in OK the attempt is indeed illegal.
    That's nice but VA has different laws. Furthermore, it's clearly LEGAL for those under age 21 to be in THAT PUB. I quoted from the owner's statement - their policy is to admit anyone up to 10pm, and to admit those under age 21 after 10pm on Sunday and Monday nights.... I doubt the Trinity Irish Pub is issuing public statements that admit to daily criminal acts....

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    It was in fact a restaurant. You can view the menu here: Trinity Irish Pub | Charlottesville, VaTrinity Irish Pub | Charlottesville, Va There is no law or state rule that prohibits underage patrons from entering, before, or after 10pm. That's only bar policy.

    And I've already speculated the ABC agents might have suspected he used fake ID. But the accounts are he was polite and cordial at the bar, was peacefully walking away, and still detained. And because he was insufficiently subservient to police questioning him about his VALID ID, he was arrested. How he reacted to the detention/questioning was the 'crime.' My discussion with Ockham began when he asserted the original crime was trying to enter a bar - that's false. He committed no crime at all except he didn't behave properly for the ABC agents, without force....
    Because once they establish that they have "reasonable suspicion", as could easily be gained from overhearing a conversation questioning the validity of the presented ID to a bouncer at a pub, then they have the absolute right and should stop the person to question them and determine the validity of the ID card. They had obvious reasonable suspicion to believe a crime, possession/use of a fake ID card, was happening. They might have been wrong, but can't know that without first finding out. That is not an unreasonable request at all. It is not in any way wrong for the police to question him about his ID and whether he had been drinking or trying to obtain alcohol underage or determine if he had a fake ID. Cooperation is not unreasonable nor is it asking for "subservience". It is doing their job, upholding the laws.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  9. #209
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Yeah, you keep posting the link and hilariously cannot quote the relevant section from it because IT DOES NOT EXIST AT YOUR LINK.
    Yeah you have to click to find the information there. You should try that.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Because once they establish that they have "reasonable suspicion", as could easily be gained from overhearing a conversation questioning the validity of the presented ID to a bouncer at a pub, then they have the absolute right and should stop the person to question them and determine the validity of the ID card. They had obvious reasonable suspicion to believe a crime, possession/use of a fake ID card, was happening. They might have been wrong, but can't know that without first finding out. That is not an unreasonable request at all. It is not in any way wrong for the police to question him about his ID and whether he had been drinking or trying to obtain alcohol underage or determine if he had a fake ID. Cooperation is not unreasonable nor is it asking for "subservience". It is doing their job, upholding the laws.
    Just a comment to support that; Reasonable Suspicion is the lowest requirement needed, as opposed to Probable Cause.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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