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Thread: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

  1. #191
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Summary:
    You didn't post the law that states ABC officers cannot stop Johnson.
    It's because the stop was legal, but baseless, as I said.

    You posted a article with a statement by the Pub's co owner but no verifiable law nor a link.
    The statement of bar POLICY is a verifiable link. And you're the one asserting that it's a crime to be age 20 in the Irish Pub. The burden is on you. I cannot prove a negative beyond pointing out the obvious that the bar is heavily regulated and overseen by ABC and issued a public statement that it allows underage people before 10pm and on some nights after 10pm.

    Besides, Trinity serves liquor, and so in VA must derive at least 45% of its sales from food. You go to restaurants that serve liquor - is it illegal for underage patrons to be in restaurants where you live? Of course it's not, unless you live in the Bible belt, if such a thing exists in NJ. So why would it be illegal in Charlottesville, VA?

    I've already addressed the rest of your fiction. Anything new you'd like to discuss?
    Sure, quote the relevant law from those links you keep posting. I'm really curious what law you're relying on....

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    From the UVa student newspaper, The Cavalier Daily, we can read a bit more about what happened that night

    So why did the ABC police grab Johnson?
    It seems he did have a fake ID or something if the bouncer questioned it and he was 20. That would be more than cause for the ABC or police to stop him if they felt that he had a fake ID. He was underage and trying to get into a bar. It is possible that the bouncer didn't look well at the ID at first and it clearly showed he was underage, rather than it being fake, but it depends on if they have different licenses for those under 21 than those 21 and over in the state he's from.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    It's because the stop was legal, but baseless, as I said.

    The statement of bar POLICY is a verifiable link. And you're the one asserting that it's a crime to be age 20 in the Irish Pub. The burden is on you. I cannot prove a negative beyond pointing out the obvious that the bar is heavily regulated and overseen by ABC and issued a public statement that it allows underage people before 10pm and on some nights after 10pm.

    Besides, Trinity serves liquor, and so in VA must derive at least 45% of its sales from food. You go to restaurants that serve liquor - is it illegal for underage patrons to be in restaurants where you live? Of course it's not, unless you live in the Bible belt, if such a thing exists in NJ. So why would it be illegal in Charlottesville, VA?

    Sure, quote the relevant law from those links you keep posting. I'm really curious what law you're relying on....
    He was trying to get into a bar not a restaurant, and if the bouncer was questioning his zip code, this would lead to officers in the area suspecting the kid had a fake ID (it says he was having trouble providing the bouncer with the correct zip code on the ID). This does fall under a legitimate reason to stop a person, since in pretty much every state it would be illegal to have a fake ID.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    According to some in this thread, the law doesn't matter you see.... underage kids can enter pubs without a parent or guardian until 10 pm even on St. Patricks Day, one of the heaviest drinking days of the entire year and in a college town no less!
    You're laughing but have repeatedly failed to cite any law that makes it illegal , a crime, for Johnson to enter the Trinity Irish Pub on St. Patrick's Day.

    So the point is the law in fact does matter, and it was legal for him to enter, legal for him to try to enter. Only BAR POLICY restricted him from entering, and violating or attempting to violate bar POLICY is not a crime. And that it was not a crime to try to enter would also explain why ABC didn't charge him with your made up crime. They, unlike you, would have to cite an actual section of the Virginia Code, and the section prohibiting minors from restaurants that serve alcohol does not exist.

  5. #195
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    It's because the stop was legal, but baseless, as I said.
    Well that's a change since in post #180 you stated this:

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL
    I said they had no basis to stop him, not that it was ILLEGAL to stop him.
    Clearly you stated it was ILLEGAL - and you even capitalized it to stress the illegality. I'm glad you have seen the light.

    Now why do you say it was baseless?


    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    The statement of bar POLICY is a verifiable link.
    That is a statement by the owner, not a verifiable fact. Where is the law that supports the owners opinion? You have not provided it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Besides, Trinity serves liquor, and so in VA must derive at least 45% of its sales from food.
    What % from food on St. Patricks Day? Did the article say or can you provide that information as a verifiable fact with a link?

    Again... anything new because we've been over this multiple times now.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  6. #196
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    You're laughing but have repeatedly failed to cite any law that makes it illegal , a crime, for Johnson to enter the Trinity Irish Pub on St. Patrick's Day.
    I've posted the link twice... here it is a third time.

    APIS - State Profiles of Underage Drinking Laws
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    I believe that localities/states that allow this define pubs differently than they do bars. Usually has to do with food service.
    The thing is though, why would the bouncer/owner have to ask the kid about his zip code if he had a license/ID card that showed his real age in the first place? They already reported he was under 21. The owner of the pub could have simply said "you're under 21, we can't let you in here right now, since our policy is no one under 21 after this time at night". It doesn't make any sense that it was his ID if the bouncer/owner of the pub asked such a question. Unless he simply looked at the ID wrong.
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The thing is though, why would the bouncer/owner have to ask the kid about his zip code if he had a license/ID card that showed his real age in the first place? They already reported he was under 21. The owner of the pub could have simply said "you're under 21, we can't let you in here right now, since our policy is no one under 21 after this time at night". It doesn't make any sense that it was his ID if the bouncer/owner of the pub asked such a question. Unless he simply looked at the ID wrong.
    Could be for the correct stamp or wristband. Especially on celebration days pubs that allow underage folks in have different stamps or wristbands for those who can legally drink and those who cannot. The fake ID would take the presenter into illegal territory. It's not legal to have a fake ID no matter how you slice it.

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    He was trying to get into a bar not a restaurant, and if the bouncer was questioning his zip code, this would lead to officers in the area suspecting the kid had a fake ID (it says he was having trouble providing the bouncer with the correct zip code on the ID). This does fall under a legitimate reason to stop a person, since in pretty much every state it would be illegal to have a fake ID.
    It was in fact a restaurant. You can view the menu here: Trinity Irish Pub | Charlottesville, VaTrinity Irish Pub | Charlottesville, Va There is no law or state rule that prohibits underage patrons from entering, before, or after 10pm. That's only bar policy.

    And I've already speculated the ABC agents might have suspected he used fake ID. But the accounts are he was polite and cordial at the bar, was peacefully walking away, and still detained. And because he was insufficiently subservient to police questioning him about his VALID ID, he was arrested. How he reacted to the detention/questioning was the 'crime.' My discussion with Ockham began when he asserted the original crime was trying to enter a bar - that's false. He committed no crime at all except he didn't behave properly for the ABC agents, without force....

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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I've posted the link twice... here it is a third time.

    APIS - State Profiles of Underage Drinking Laws
    Yeah, you keep posting the link and hilariously cannot quote the relevant section from it because IT DOES NOT EXIST AT YOUR LINK.

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