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Thread: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

  1. #121
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Why do you assume he has no idea? I'd think a VP at UVa could get something as simple as a breathalyzer test of a student without any trouble at all in a college town. What's 'hearsay' is assuming he was drunk. What is YOUR evidence of that unless you have the results of the breathalyzer?
    He wasn't there. breathalyzed wouldn't work hours later.

    I've said "may have been drunk, may have been beligerent". I don't know./ ,




    I'd guess if he became "pugilistic" they'd have charged him with that, but they didn't - they noted NO use of force in the arrest documents. So the evidence indicates he didn't use any violence at all. He might have been "belligerent" as I expect you'd be if the cops detained you on some BS charge.

    What evidence?
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Why do you assume he has no idea? I'd think a VP at UVa could get something as simple as a breathalyzer test of a student without any trouble at all in a college town. What's 'hearsay' is assuming he was drunk. What is YOUR evidence of that unless you have the results of the breathalyzer?
    He wasn't there. breathalyzed wouldn't work hours later.

    I've said "may have been drunk, may have been beligerent". I don't know./ ,




    I'd guess if he became "pugilistic" they'd have charged him with that, but they didn't - they noted NO use of force in the arrest documents. So the evidence indicates he didn't use any violence at all. He might have been "belligerent" as I expect you'd be if the cops detained you on some BS charge.

    What evidence?
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  3. #123
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    He wasn't there. breathalyzed wouldn't work hours later.

    I've said "may have been drunk, may have been beligerent". I don't know.
    This isn't a court of law. I'm assuming the VP is faithfully representing the results of the breathalyzer test, and there's no reason to believe he'd make that up. It's the simplest of things for the cops to correct that.

    What evidence?
    The evidence he didn't use violence against the cops is he was not charged with using violence against the cops. He was specifically NOT charged with use of violence. That would seem to be controlling until we learn something to dispute what he was charged with......

  4. #124
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    So any wrongdoing from him is just completely unexpected given his "record" so that's why you have made up your mind about the cops.
    It's that, and I can't imagine what would justify the use of force against the person. It's not impossible the cops acted entirely appropriately, but I doubt it. We're all speculating, of course, just giving our opinions. If you don't like how I've justified mine, fine.

    Okay. Makes sense coming from you.
    ?????

  5. #125
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    And kids on the Honor Committee at UVa don't normally lie either. They get expelled.
    This incident didn't occur on U.Va property but off campus, so it's still irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    So if your attitude is bad, you should expect to be taken to the ground, bloodied, and arrested? Interesting view of appropriate role of the police you have. I don't agree.
    It has nothing to do with attitude, it has to do with the penal code of Virginia.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I've read them - and they pointed out his "obstruction" was without force.
    They didn't point anything out as it applies to Johnson. Both are misdemeanors and therefore if the accused is not cooperative, he should be restrained, which is what the video shows and the facts so far, support

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Right, another crime he MIGHT be charged with, but wasn't. Any more - assault, rape, murder, drug dealing? Why not while we're speculating?
    Because my example is at least reasonable, whereas your examples are extremist nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Yeah, and you probably were guilty of a half dozen misdemeanors today - if not today, this week. I don't believe you would accept getting taken to the ground, bloodied and arrested for those violations.
    Perhaps that applies to you but not to me. I worked from home today, it snowed all day here. I have responsibilities and the last time I got drunk and did something this stupid I was in the Army. But even then the last thing I'd do is fight the police and scream "racist" at the top of my lungs even while drunk. I'm a quiet drunk you see.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Not what I was talking about - I was referring to the DOJ report on the police practices in general in Ferguson. I guess you missed that thread.
    Yes there are police procedural issues and training problems in lots of places in the US which cause lots of problems. Rev tends to post some of those and the issues he shows on video and have in the past, I've been appalled seeing. One where a older gentleman with Dealer tags gets pulled over by a cop and gets tazed - however in that case, the cop was 100% in the wrong. The premise for pulling the guy over was for an outdated inspection sticker (a Non moving vehicle violation - not a misdemeanor) where the cop then pulls the attitude and illegally slams the guy on the hood and ground tazes him and then arrests him. The funny thing here is, the cop didn't know a car with dealer tags doesn't need a valid inspection sticker (this happened in TX).
    The result of that incident (sorry for taking this off topic but I'll try to bring it back around) was the Cop was fired after an IA review and may face charges himself.

    The purpose of me bring that up was I don't jump to conclusions often as I treat each and every incident separately. Not all cops are bad, not all cops are badly trained and we tend to hear about the bad one's. In the case of Johnson, I don't see bad cops. In the case of Vasquez, I saw a person who had no business being a cop and the public is safer with him seeking employment elsewhere.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  6. #126
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    This isn't a court of law. I'm assuming the VP is faithfully representing the results of the breathalyzer test, and there's
    no reason to believe he'd make that up. It's the simplest of things for the cops to correct that.

    No reason?




    The evidence he didn't use violence against the cops is he was not charged with using violence against the cops. He was specifically NOT charged with use of violence. That would seem to be controlling until we learn something to dispute what he was charged with......

    cops have discretion.
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  7. #127
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    This incident didn't occur on U.Va property but off campus, so it's still irrelevant.
    I don't think that's relevant - he clearly and emphatically identified himself as a UVa student, near campus. He's deliberately brought this into the jurisdiction of the committee he serves on.

    They didn't point anything out as it applies to Johnson. Both are misdemeanors and therefore if the accused is not cooperative, he should be restrained, which is what the video shows and the facts so far, support
    The document says "NO THRT/FORCE"

    Because my example is at least reasonable, whereas your examples are extremist nonsense.
    But he wasn't charged with your examples - you're making baseless speculations of potential crimes he might be charged with later.

    Perhaps that applies to you but not to me. I worked from home today, it snowed all day here. I have responsibilities and the last time I got drunk and did something this stupid I was in the Army. But even then the last thing I'd do is fight the police and scream "racist" at the top of my lungs even while drunk. I'm a quiet drunk you see.
    So if the cops detain you on a BS charge, you'd act like a sheep.... Got it, and you expect the rest of us to do so as well? It is a possibility at least that the cops misbehaved, and if they did, I don't have a problem with vigorously contesting that, especially since he protested that without the use of force. That's our right as free people.

    Yes there are police procedural issues and training problems in lots of places in the US which cause lots of problems. Rev tends to post some of those and the issues he shows on video and have in the past, I've been appalled seeing. One where a older gentleman with Dealer tags gets pulled over by a cop and gets tazed - however in that case, the cop was 100% in the wrong. The premise for pulling the guy over was for an outdated inspection sticker (a Non moving vehicle violation - not a misdemeanor) where the cop then pulls the attitude and illegally slams the guy on the hood and ground tazes him and then arrests him. The funny thing here is, the cop didn't know a car with dealer tags doesn't need a valid inspection sticker (this happened in TX).
    The result of that incident (sorry for taking this off topic but I'll try to bring it back around) was the Cop was fired after an IA review and may face charges himself.

    The purpose of me bring that up was I don't jump to conclusions often as I treat each and every incident separately. Not all cops are bad, not all cops are badly trained and we tend to hear about the bad one's. In the case of Johnson, I don't see bad cops. In the case of Vasquez, I saw a person who had no business being a cop and the public is safer with him seeking employment elsewhere.
    I guess we can agree to disagree on this one, which is fine. Neither of us knows the full truth here, but based on what I know, the ABC agents and/or the cops and/or both failed in their jobs, IMO.

  8. #128
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    No reason?
    Right. There is no reason to lie about something that is so easily debunked, and will be debunked soon if what he said was false. Either the breathalyzer showed he was drunk or it didn't, but it will be public knowledge soon enough.

    cops have discretion.
    Not sure what that means. Evidence he used force while resisting arrest is at a bare minimum being charged with using force. That he was NOT charged with threat of violence or force is simply evidence that he did not. This is simple 1+1 = 2 stuff.

  9. #129
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I don't think that's relevant - he clearly and emphatically identified himself as a UVa student, near campus. He's deliberately brought this into the jurisdiction of the committee he serves on.
    It doesn't matter where he was from or which committee's he's on at school. This wasn't school therefore, irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    The document says "NO THRT/FORCE"
    What document? And what does "NO THRT/FORCE" mean and in what context?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    But he wasn't charged with your examples - you're making baseless speculations of potential crimes he might be charged with later.
    It's totally based in the law and could be added as a reasonable charge given the circumstances, and I only gave one example. Your examples were pure hyperbole though.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    So if the cops detain you on a BS charge, you'd act like a sheep.... Got it, and you expect the rest of us to do so as well?
    I'd let my lawyer handle it. That's what lawyers do. And why would I want to injure a cop - he's doing his job, I'll let my lawyer do his job and my job is to keep my mouth shut. If it's a BS charge, I'm out in a few hours. If I resit arrest, I'm staying in jail. It's all about being smart and not stupid. What you "got it" is you advocate being stupid. Cool. I support your right to resist arrest and get roughed up, charged with more things and spending some time in jail. Have fun doing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    It is a possibility at least that the cops misbehaved, and if they did, I don't have a problem with vigorously contesting that, especially since he protested that without the use of force. That's our right as free people.
    No evidence shows they have "misbehaved". The investigation will I'm sure exonerate them and Johnson will be charged and will have to go to court.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I guess we can agree to disagree on this one, which is fine. Neither of us knows the full truth here, but based on what I know, the ABC agents and/or the cops and/or both failed in their jobs, IMO.
    No reasonable person would come to that conclusion given the limited amount of evidence available. But if that's what you want to believe, fine.


    If you want to see bad cops - go to this thread..... I actually just posted the very unfulfilled follow up result.
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/law-an...n-sticker.html
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  10. #130
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    Re: Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    It doesn't matter where he was from or which committee's he's on at school. This wasn't school therefore, irrelevant.
    Not true, from the UVa Code of Honor website: The Code of Honor, University of Virginia

    Today students at the University make a commitment not to lie, cheat, or steal within Charlottesville, Albemarle County, or where they represent themselves as University students in order to gain the trust of others. Because of this commitment, there's a strong degree of trust among the various members of the University community. Students are also expected to conduct themselves with integrity and are presumed honorable until proven otherwise.
    So he was bound by it already, but when he proclaimed himself a student, and therefore subject to the Honor Code, he definitely made himself subject to expulsion if he's found to have lied.

    What document? And what does "NO THRT/FORCE" mean and in what context?
    The warrant, and when they cited the crime he was alleged to have committed.

    It's totally based in the law and could be added as a reasonable charge given the circumstances, and I only gave one example. Your examples were pure hyperbole though.
    Could be, but there is no evidence he will be.

    I'd let my lawyer handle it. That's what lawyers do. And why would I want to injure a cop - he's doing his job, I'll let my lawyer do his job and my job is to keep my mouth shut. If it's a BS charge, I'm out in a few hours. If I resit arrest, I'm staying in jail. It's all about being smart and not stupid. What you "got it" is you advocate being stupid. Cool. I support your right to resist arrest and get roughed up, charged with more things and spending some time in jail. Have fun doing it.
    OK, that's good advice. But why is that a reasonable expectation - is a free person obligated to behave like a sheep when dealing with the police?

    No evidence shows they have "misbehaved". The investigation will I'm sure exonerate them and Johnson will be charged and will have to go to court.
    You're sure.... We'll see I guess.

    No reasonable person would come to that conclusion given the limited amount of evidence available. But if that's what you want to believe, fine.
    I disagree, and it's funny that you're asserting any opinion other than yours is unreasonable.

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